Hmmm....did anybody read the new 4 wheel atv action?...the one where they just did the shootout between the Ds650, the 400ex, a 250r and the banshee?.....well...in the drag race the Ds650 won with the banshee coming in a close second and the 250r and the 400ex 3rd and 4th. I'm pretty sure that those were professional riders and the ones with banshees that you raced probably forgot that their banshees had a 6th gear. I think that their 14 year old design is still holding it's own and there won't be another manufacturer coming out with one so dominant for so long....unless we get treated to a yzf426 banshee, if that happens.....everybody look out.

Teamblue

 

First of all, there is a lot more to riding than drag racing, unless you are one of those dune shooters that does nothing but go fast up hills.

Second of all 250R's do have a 6th gear as well (wish the 400EX did) and we were talking about ATC250R's not TRX250R's, an ATC250R weighs about 285lbs dry and is very fast in stock form. No one said a stock TRX250R would out drag race a stock Banshee.

Third of all, the 14 year old design of the Banshee would never have been so popular or lasted as long as it has if there had been an alternative for the last 10 years. It's easy to be on top when no one else is there.

Gabe
'86ATC250R
'86ATC350X
'00TRX400EX

[This message has been edited by 86atc250r (edited 12-11-1999).]

 

I have always felt the rider is most important, but a good machine doesn't hurt. Also some machines may have the advantage on different tracks, trails, and conditions. For example, where we raced MX was on a hard-pack supercoss style track, and 250R's and Phillips Rotax 250 Quads had the advantage, but there was one guy who placed regularly in the top 5 at the nationals in the 4-stroke A class on a totally modified 400EX and he did well, usually in the top 5, But he never won. Also their is a national calibar outdoor MX track that has very loamy soil, and the guy to beat is on a 440EX (totally built). But again that guy is a pro caliber racer, so that doesn't hurt. To put it in perspective, that guy had a 400EX a year before they were even released, He actually raced it in the summer of 1997, they came out at the end of summer, 1998.

In other words their are a lot of combinations to make a man and machine fast...

Also it may not be which machine is best everywhere, it may be the riding experience that counts. I know, I've ridden 4-strokes all my life (Occationally took a spin on my older brothers 250R), until this last summer when almost getting a 400EX I bought a 250R. Know why, I was bored on the easy to ride 4-stroke with constant (TOO CONSTANT for me) power, so I wanted try something different to see how I would do. Now I would never give up my R because it is awsome, and FUN to ride everywhere. Don't get me wrong I still like 4-strokes for their strengths, but you have to remember, I'm only 21 years old, I'm in good shape, I like to ride WIDE OPEN, get a rush, and win races. Some day I would like a 4-stroke for just playing around, and racing when track conditions are favorable for it. But I'm also paying for college while trying to continue racing (Which isn't cheap) without the help of my parents for either, so I can't afford both, so I chose what I felt would be the best machine for me at the time, And I don't regret it one bit... If I was strickly a trail rider or not as good a rider, I'd probably be on the 400EX or something else first.

I also agree with 86atc250r in the fact that the Banshee is popular because it's a loner. Also anybody saying Yamaha is dominant due to the Banshee doesn't seem to recall that the last 250R was sold in '89, whereas the banshee is still being sold, yet the R is yet referred to as the best quad ever built (Not to mention it IS THE MOST SOUGHT AFTER QUAD TO THIS DAY)!!! Also why do you think all aftermarket frames (Including the ones for a Banshee) are patterned after the 250R's geometry, not the Banshee's. The new 400EX is patterned after it, with a few updates, also Yamaha bought two Leager's Chassis. Why, to pattern their next quad after the HONDA 250R also (They are building the YZF Powered quad with Honda frame geometry with the banshee look).

I don't mean to upset anyone, but the facts speak for themselves as to which one is, and has been obsolete in the most important area (Handling), whereas the other withstood the test of time... Or should I say dominant.

I'm not saying it will always be that way, because if Yamaha can actually build a quad that handles as well as an R or 400EX with the YZ400F engine, then that thing will hard to beat (But then The bike magazines say the YZ250 is actually easier to race and ride in trails than even the WR400, so it has yet to be seen). That would be nothing but good, because Honda does not like to loose at their own game, so it aught to make the future of ATV'ing look very bright. Especially with all the new manufatures that are coming out with quads, both sport/race, and utility.

Also, the only quad that ever beat me this summer was a Banshee! Oh yea, that was because I broke my swing-arm, so he got a lucky BREAK. But I made up for it the next weekend when I lapped that same guy, and his Banshee was perfectly fine.

But then again is that the machine or rider, I do know I was consitently the winner (when nothing broke), and the guy on the banshee was off-and-on all season. So I think that proves how I feel that the rider is what makes the most difference. Our motto at the track is,
"You can have all the money in the world, but if you can't ride it makes no difference." And that's nothing but the truth.

Heck look at guy we race with named Mark Burns, you may have heard of him, he is 4X national 4-stroke Champion (An artical called "2-stroke Killer" in one of the magazines a few years back about a 250X built to a 400 by TC in a stock R frame that was cleaning up the Open pro class is about him). He's the man to beat at Hawkeye Downs on his 250R (Which he races more than the 4-stroke due to reliability, 4-strokes do lose more reliability than 2-strokes when massively built), but he runs a Stock R frame, not-at-all fancy 250R as compaired to the others, and he is always in the Top 10 at the Nationals in the Pro 250 class against twice as expensive machines. I actually have a very similar machine to his, so if I can't beat him next season in the pro class, its because he's a better rider and I lack experiece (Only MX'd 1 year). According the local engine builder and everyone else, my lap times were similar to his all season, and I actually didn't ride hard all season because nobody pushed me in the B class, so I can't wait, maybe I'll surprise myself when I'm pushed against the big boys. It would be an honor to even keep up, so I'm looking forward to it.

Sorry about the long post, but This topic seems to always come up, and it always the same, as-far-as people thinking they have the best machine, when there are so many other reasons and factors as to which machine is faster or wins what kind of race on what day. Even I lost the holeshot to a 400EX and a Banshee once (when I was sick, thus couldn't eat all day, and just drove 12 hours.) I've got it on tape, I was so slow to react that I was the last one to clear the gate. But I still won by half a lap over second place (Who had dad invested over $6,500 in an all new frame, suspension, and engine, in order beat me). I guess he would have had me if his supension would have been better. I was threatened by almost everybody before the race they would kill me if I didn't beat him, because he likes to talk the talk, but has yet to walk the walk.

Which is another good point, don't make excuses, nobody likes that, especially racers. I know somebody that would sit there and say how bad he rode when he won the race, and then had worse excuses or comments when he lost. He was a very good rider and super nice (away from the track), but when it came to racing nobody liked him. I am very thankfull I have the dad I have, because if he ever heard me complain, make an excuse, or be cockey about anything when I first started racing, he'd flat out say knock it off or your done. Now I can look back at this last season and feel good that everybody rooted for me because I was new in the area, I was never cocky, or complained about anything. Even if somebody was basically mouthing off to me (The previously mentioned made sure I and everyone else know he'd do anything to beat me in each race, even if I couldn't walk off the track) and all I would do is shake my head, yep OK; when I could have easily come back with a remark or two, but I didn't. I just saved it for the track. Actually I was bored all season and didn't even feel like riding sometimes, but then I hear a nice remark by a certain person to me or somebody else (He always made sure I heard it) and made me feel like riding again (I was encouraged to stick out a season learning in the B class for one season than move up, so I did because I knew that person knew what he was talking about).

Put it this way, put Doug Gust on the slower and worse handling quad, and he will most likely kick all of our butts... Which brings me to my last point, maybe we should be spending our energy showing the TV stations just how popular our sport is, and persuading them show ATV's along with the other forms of motorsports, instead of bickering about who has or makes the best quad.

I personally heard Wayne Mooridian of PEP say that Doug is the best MXer ever, even better than McGrath, and I won't argue that! He's definitly a sight to see, even if you don't race its an impressive site. Too bad they don't have the ATV Nationals on TV, maybe you'd be hearing McGrath is the Doug Gust of motorcycles, instead of the other way around. Maybe someday that will change, and I can't wait, because then maybe I, and other beginners like me would maybe be able to get the kind of help the bikes get for racing, especially when we have to spend twice as much money on a quad than a bike to make it competitive!

Sickman



[This message has been edited by Sickman (edited 12-12-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Sickman (edited 12-12-1999).]

 

Sickman, I totally agree with you 100%. Its not about a the quad but the ridder on top of it. I been ridding at a local MX track for about a year; twice a month (never raced). My ride is a bone stock trx250r with nerfbars and kill switch. I still remember when I started to ride meating this guy in the track who races in the nationals. His ride is a $15000.00 Lonstar trx250r and he races in the 40+ class. He also hauls his ride with a 20ft inclosed trailer and a '99 ford F350. I thought that this guy has to be a monster Mxer. Yet, Its been one year and I'm already running right behind him. I feel if I get more confidence with the jumps, I will give him a run for the money. Basically, I 'm tring to emphisize on your point, that Its not the quad so much as it is the rider. If only sponsors would give some of us (low budget riders) the opportunity to show our talents, they will be surprised of the outcome. In the mean time, I'll have fun tring to catch up with this "so called MXer".

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I agree totally but the quad has to be set up for that rider also, If someone is an excellent rider, maybe even a top pro, that likes strong midrange power and they ride a machine with all topend they might not do to well. Same goes for chassis and suspension setup.

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Garrett Lowman; CT240 Blaster, YZ490

 

a banshee does not weigh over 400 pounds it only weighs around 380 and i can tell u one thing that i own a 99 banshee and my buddy has a race 250r and i can beat him in a drag race and but he can only beat me on the mx track because his bike it built for it. if the 250r wasnt made to race he wouldnt even touch me, but it all comes down too if u feel right with the bike, i dont think it is all the bike i think it is 80%rider and 20%bike,

[This message has been edited by banshee97 (edited 12-14-1999).]

 

When I said the 250r is faster than a Banshee I did say an ATC250r and I also said in a drag race. Obviously the rider is extremely important. But what is Yamahas excuse for continually failing to update their premier machine in any signifigant way shape or form since they did away with the crummy original J arm front end? Even at 385 pounds it still is 100 pounds heavier than my ATC250r and in that case it has even LESS of an excuse for being slower than a 250r. As someone else stated it is easy to build the fastest bike when your the only one of the Big Four bike makers to offer one. I think some of my dislike for it also comes from that the Banshee has become the "ME TOO!!" bike over the last five years. Come on people show some creativity, ANYONE can go out, buy a Banshee and slap a set of Toomey's on it. BUILD SOMETHING DIFFERENT!!

 

I would also like to see something different than banshees with pipes. (yawn) None of the greatest, most skilled riders have banshees in there garage. Its always the super cocky unskilled rider with the big mouth. I'm sorry about all you great people on banshees, but it really has become the "ME TOO" quad.

If you really think about it why do ATC 250rs trash banshees in speed? Why are banshees as heavy as the huge quadzilla, and why can a 300ex trash it through the woods?

Refresh my memory why are they `THE BEST` and the `KING OF SPEED`

Its time for something diffent....



[This message has been edited by Dominator (edited 12-15-1999).]

 

thats kind of funny i didnt put toomys pipes on my banshee i put fmf on mine and i beat 250rs on the track i dont beat them all but i do beat some and i only started raceing about 4 months ago

 

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. You are in the minority, most guys put on toomeys and think they can outrun anything. I agree that on a MX track or in the woods the rider is the most important part of the race but what I've been saying is that in a DRAG RACE an 85-86 ATC250r will beat a similarly modified Banshee. A TRX250r is alot heavier than the ATC so it is slower in a drag race. You have to admit that the whole Banshee thing is getting played out. Yamaha needs to do something with it, either update it and pump the power up or kill it. If Honda put the 99 CR250 motor in a trx type chassis racers would be climbing over one another to buy it and you'd see them totally take over the MX scene. But I guess we'll just have to disagree, as soon as I go down the fire road in Pt. Elizabeth and a Banshee passes me I'll be back here to tell you.