could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
#11
09-27-2005, 12:27 PM
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could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
What happens when you have a brake failure on that trailer towing 14K pounds? Guess what, it's not going to stop...for a LONG time. Hitch failure? I've dropped a trailer at 60MPH that weighed about 6-7K pounds on the freeway. It pushed around a 10K ('94 F-450 flat bed) truck like it was a friggin toy. And that truck is rated for more than that load.
The tow vehilcle MUST be able to stop the combination of vehicles, period.
To the original poster: Yes, a diesel is much better. As others have said, the engines are built to produce a ton of torque and operate at lower RPMs. Most diesels redline in the 4K territory (BIG diesels in big rigs only run about 2000RPM). They usually have really long strokes, compared to their bore. While putting out a better torque curve (nearly flat) they'll do it using less fuel, and generally actually putting out less pollution (with the exception of NOx and particulate matter (soot) under really heavy load with a lead foot behind the wheel.)
It used to be that #2 diesel was cheaper then 87 octane. The recent advancements in diesel technology (most notably by the Big 3 in the pick-ups, diesel cars are on the rare side in the US) there's been a huge rush to diesel driving up the demand, and price. To give you an idea, over 1/2 of Ford's Super Duty sales are diesel powered, and they sell more diesel powered trucks than GM and Dodge, combined. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
Total cost of ownership is about a wash with a diesel. If you drive a lot of miles, you can come out ahead. They aren't great short trip motors, because they work off of heat. Payoff purely in mileage is about 100K most of the time. But your initial investment will return itself (Ford charges a $5K premium for the diesel, and Blue Book is usually about $6K higher on the diesel over the 6.8 V10). So basically you get your investment, plus interest on the back side (to roll over to your new diesel...most people who switch to diesel don't go back to gas, but some do.)
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
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The tow vehilcle MUST be able to stop the combination of vehicles, period.
To the original poster: Yes, a diesel is much better. As others have said, the engines are built to produce a ton of torque and operate at lower RPMs. Most diesels redline in the 4K territory (BIG diesels in big rigs only run about 2000RPM). They usually have really long strokes, compared to their bore. While putting out a better torque curve (nearly flat) they'll do it using less fuel, and generally actually putting out less pollution (with the exception of NOx and particulate matter (soot) under really heavy load with a lead foot behind the wheel.)
It used to be that #2 diesel was cheaper then 87 octane. The recent advancements in diesel technology (most notably by the Big 3 in the pick-ups, diesel cars are on the rare side in the US) there's been a huge rush to diesel driving up the demand, and price. To give you an idea, over 1/2 of Ford's Super Duty sales are diesel powered, and they sell more diesel powered trucks than GM and Dodge, combined. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
Total cost of ownership is about a wash with a diesel. If you drive a lot of miles, you can come out ahead. They aren't great short trip motors, because they work off of heat. Payoff purely in mileage is about 100K most of the time. But your initial investment will return itself (Ford charges a $5K premium for the diesel, and Blue Book is usually about $6K higher on the diesel over the 6.8 V10). So basically you get your investment, plus interest on the back side (to roll over to your new diesel...most people who switch to diesel don't go back to gas, but some do.)
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
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#12
09-27-2005, 02:45 PM
could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
Cuesta grade is 2 miles long[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] In my 7.3 PSD[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] I can haul my load up it at 60 mph(my choice) then, if I need to pass a slower moving vehicle, I have plenty of torque to get the job done. One of the major complaints in the past on diesels was the noise they make. Todays engines are a lot quieter[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
#13
09-27-2005, 02:48 PM
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could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
#14
09-27-2005, 03:45 PM
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could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
Originally posted by: DSengineer
What gearing does that 6.0 have and what size/weight trailer are we talking about?
What gearing does that 6.0 have and what size/weight trailer are we talking about?
24' Prowler TH.
See QuadKaryn's page.
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#15
09-27-2005, 04:48 PM
could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
Hmmm.. someone talkin about me?? hahaha
Yes, I do dump my trailer (but then again, who wants to haul all the ummm "stuff" home?). I've hauled my fresh water up the grade (cuz I forgot to open the valves) and yes, I do get a nice start at the bottom of the hill as long as no one's in my way.. but wait, I think I do more than 20mph up the hill! Give my little truck some credit.. haha.. Give me at least 40mph..k? It is a 24ft Prowler (total 27.5ft) and that sucker is heavy.. but yes, if I had a diesel, I'm sure I could make it up much easier, but on the flatland, I can keep up with the best of them.. does that count?? hahahahaha[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Yes, I do dump my trailer (but then again, who wants to haul all the ummm "stuff" home?). I've hauled my fresh water up the grade (cuz I forgot to open the valves) and yes, I do get a nice start at the bottom of the hill as long as no one's in my way.. but wait, I think I do more than 20mph up the hill! Give my little truck some credit.. haha.. Give me at least 40mph..k? It is a 24ft Prowler (total 27.5ft) and that sucker is heavy.. but yes, if I had a diesel, I'm sure I could make it up much easier, but on the flatland, I can keep up with the best of them.. does that count?? hahahahaha[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
#17
09-27-2005, 05:52 PM
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could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
Originally posted by: QuadKaryn
Hmmm.. someone talkin about me?? hahaha
Yes, I do dump my trailer (but then again, who wants to haul all the ummm "stuff" home?). I've hauled my fresh water up the grade (cuz I forgot to open the valves) and yes, I do get a nice start at the bottom of the hill as long as no one's in my way.. but wait, I think I do more than 20mph up the hill! Give my little truck some credit.. haha.. Give me at least 40mph..k? It is a 24ft Prowler (total 27.5ft) and that sucker is heavy.. but yes, if I had a diesel, I'm sure I could make it up much easier, but on the flatland, I can keep up with the best of them.. does that count?? hahahahaha[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Hmmm.. someone talkin about me?? hahaha
Yes, I do dump my trailer (but then again, who wants to haul all the ummm "stuff" home?). I've hauled my fresh water up the grade (cuz I forgot to open the valves) and yes, I do get a nice start at the bottom of the hill as long as no one's in my way.. but wait, I think I do more than 20mph up the hill! Give my little truck some credit.. haha.. Give me at least 40mph..k? It is a 24ft Prowler (total 27.5ft) and that sucker is heavy.. but yes, if I had a diesel, I'm sure I could make it up much easier, but on the flatland, I can keep up with the best of them.. does that count?? hahahahaha[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
I said you DROP 20MPH (to 50MPH). I guess I was being a little generous if you're dropping to 40MPH.
Trailer is 10K GVWR (or really close). Figure she's probably at least 6-7K traveling.
He wanted to know what gears you have in your truck. It will be on the window sticker, if you still have it. Or the build sheet from when they customized it. That thing has got to have 4.10s in it. Look for Axle Ratio or something like that. You'll see something like 4.10LS or whatever GM denotes it as. Could also be 3.73 as well. Could even be 4.30 or 4.56 or so. Not sure what sizes are available for GM. (Ford is 3.73 [standard diesel gear], 4.10 [option], 4.30 [Toss Boss only] and 4.88 [F-450 and bigger only].)
It just takes HP to go on flat lands.
Torque is the force applied.
HP is the rate at which torque is applied. 1HP = 33,000 foot pounds per minute. (And yes, Watt did pull this 33,000ft lb/mn out of his @ss...actually close enough...he observed ponies moving 22,000 ft lbs/mn and assumed a horse can do 50% more.) A 300HP motor is able to do 9.9M foot pounds of work per minute. At 15,000lb that works out to a theoretical speed of 660 ft/min which is about 8MPH or so. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Well...if you were lifting it straight up into the air. Put it on some tires, etc and you can move it at over 100MPH.
The big thing is how much power is going to the ground (figure about 20-30% less than the actual engine output), and how much power you NEED to be getting to the ground.
Now that you are all staring at the screen going "oh great, another LAP" I'll say bye. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
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#18
09-27-2005, 08:43 PM
could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
With my F250 V10, I'm good to about 10K lbs. Any more than that is too much weight, the motor has to scream to maintain speed up and down the PA mountains. My dad has a Dodge with the new Cummins 24 valve, 10K lbs is nothing for that truck. He tows a huge 5th wheel, somewhere around 14K lbs fully loaded and that truck doesn't strain as much as my V10 with 10K lbs. If you are going to tow heavy, a diesel is the only choice.
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09-27-2005, 10:26 PM
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could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
What happens when you have a brake failure on that trailer towing 14K pounds? Guess what, it's not going to stop...for a LONG time. Hitch failure? I've dropped a trailer at 60MPH that weighed about 6-7K pounds on the freeway. It pushed around a 10K ('94 F-450 flat bed) truck like it was a friggin toy. And that truck is rated for more than that load.
The tow vehilcle MUST be able to stop the combination of vehicles, period.
To the original poster: Yes, a diesel is much better. As others have said, the engines are built to produce a ton of torque and operate at lower RPMs. Most diesels redline in the 4K territory (BIG diesels in big rigs only run about 2000RPM). They usually have really long strokes, compared to their bore. While putting out a better torque curve (nearly flat) they'll do it using less fuel, and generally actually putting out less pollution (with the exception of NOx and particulate matter (soot) under really heavy load with a lead foot behind the wheel.)
It used to be that #2 diesel was cheaper then 87 octane. The recent advancements in diesel technology (most notably by the Big 3 in the pick-ups, diesel cars are on the rare side in the US) there's been a huge rush to diesel driving up the demand, and price. To give you an idea, over 1/2 of Ford's Super Duty sales are diesel powered, and they sell more diesel powered trucks than GM and Dodge, combined. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
Total cost of ownership is about a wash with a diesel. If you drive a lot of miles, you can come out ahead. They aren't great short trip motors, because they work off of heat. Payoff purely in mileage is about 100K most of the time. But your initial investment will return itself (Ford charges a $5K premium for the diesel, and Blue Book is usually about $6K higher on the diesel over the 6.8 V10). So basically you get your investment, plus interest on the back side (to roll over to your new diesel...most people who switch to diesel don't go back to gas, but some do.)
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
What happens when you have a brake failure on that trailer towing 14K pounds? Guess what, it's not going to stop...for a LONG time. Hitch failure? I've dropped a trailer at 60MPH that weighed about 6-7K pounds on the freeway. It pushed around a 10K ('94 F-450 flat bed) truck like it was a friggin toy. And that truck is rated for more than that load.
The tow vehilcle MUST be able to stop the combination of vehicles, period.
To the original poster: Yes, a diesel is much better. As others have said, the engines are built to produce a ton of torque and operate at lower RPMs. Most diesels redline in the 4K territory (BIG diesels in big rigs only run about 2000RPM). They usually have really long strokes, compared to their bore. While putting out a better torque curve (nearly flat) they'll do it using less fuel, and generally actually putting out less pollution (with the exception of NOx and particulate matter (soot) under really heavy load with a lead foot behind the wheel.)
It used to be that #2 diesel was cheaper then 87 octane. The recent advancements in diesel technology (most notably by the Big 3 in the pick-ups, diesel cars are on the rare side in the US) there's been a huge rush to diesel driving up the demand, and price. To give you an idea, over 1/2 of Ford's Super Duty sales are diesel powered, and they sell more diesel powered trucks than GM and Dodge, combined. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
Total cost of ownership is about a wash with a diesel. If you drive a lot of miles, you can come out ahead. They aren't great short trip motors, because they work off of heat. Payoff purely in mileage is about 100K most of the time. But your initial investment will return itself (Ford charges a $5K premium for the diesel, and Blue Book is usually about $6K higher on the diesel over the 6.8 V10). So basically you get your investment, plus interest on the back side (to roll over to your new diesel...most people who switch to diesel don't go back to gas, but some do.)
I'm not sure where Placentia is, I'm thinking SoCal, but to give you an idea, I have a friend who has the 6.0. She has to dump her trailer at Pismo completely dry. That includes fresh, grey and black tanks so she can climb Cuesta Grade (6% 1-2 miles) going north of San Louis Obispo. She cranks it up to nearly 70MPH at the bottom and still drops about 20MPH. The diesels in the group tow wet and crank up the hill at 60-65 w/o a problem.
i am in so cal and i go up that Cuesta Grade with my 26' TH and that's what is making me think diesel. another thing that is making me want to upgrade is the allison transmission, because towing (sounds) very hard on my tranny.
#20
09-27-2005, 11:57 PM
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could i really tow that much more with a diesel?
Ford and GM both have a nice tranny with GM upping the ante to a 6sp this year.
I wonder if Ford will answer with a 6sp with the roumered 6.4 Twin Turbo coming in '07.
Makes me wonder if Eaton for example would ever coming out with a smaller AutoShift. If they can work on the business end of a 9-12L I6 pushing 2500lb/ft I don't think a small diesel in a pickup would be too much to handle. Of course they'd have to scale down from 10 gears. Tranny probably weighs what a gas motor in a pickup weighs.
The new motors, at least from Ford, seem to really like to spin to make the power. A lot of people aren't used to that in a truck motor. We've got 4.6s at the office with most over 100K, and I think the older ones pushing upwards of 200K and they are all running great...now that one has decided to keep it's spark plugs. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]
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I wonder if Ford will answer with a 6sp with the roumered 6.4 Twin Turbo coming in '07.
Makes me wonder if Eaton for example would ever coming out with a smaller AutoShift. If they can work on the business end of a 9-12L I6 pushing 2500lb/ft I don't think a small diesel in a pickup would be too much to handle. Of course they'd have to scale down from 10 gears. Tranny probably weighs what a gas motor in a pickup weighs.
The new motors, at least from Ford, seem to really like to spin to make the power. A lot of people aren't used to that in a truck motor. We've got 4.6s at the office with most over 100K, and I think the older ones pushing upwards of 200K and they are all running great...now that one has decided to keep it's spark plugs. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]
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