No, I understood what you meant. I was just reaffirming your statement that the 7.3s are durable engines. Sorry if my post sounded like I was countering your post, actually I agreed with it. And BLACKANDREDWARRIOR, I heard that Ford bought Cummins and that after Dodge's contract expires with Cummins in a couple of years, Dodge will need to find a new diesel producer. Is that incorrect?

 

Bzzt. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] It is incorrect. Searched around a bit on Google. My cursory search revealed that Ford used to own about 3% of outstanding Cummins stock with an investment started in 1990 with Cummins repurchasing the stock 1.3M shares in a private deal and another 1.7M in open market purchases. (Those are number of shares, not dollar values.) That was a short blurb I ran across from the New York Times. This could have been a deal for whatever reason (Cummins maybe needed cash, or whatever.) This was also when Ford still had a HD truck line (F-8000, IIRC. They sold that line off to someone, umm, not sure, maybe like Freightliner, or maybe not. FL is owned by DeimlerChrysler, doesn't matter anyways.)

This Ford-Cummins linkup is a mytch that just won't die.

Some clickies:

NY Times from 1997

Cummins site: "No, Ford does not own any part of Cummins Inc."

I've heard the Dodge ditching Cummins thing for a while. Would it happen, hard to say. Considering they are sourcing a new motor from Cummins, I would have to say not for a LONG time. If Cummins is spending the money to R&D that new motor for them (though, I'm sure they'll sell it to 3rd parties as well, just like the ISB, IIRC that's Cummins designation) it's going to be around for a while and if they are smart they will lock Dodge into a long contract.

I think those rumours really started flying when DaimlerBenz bought Chrysler since DB makes a lot of diesels in Europe. The Dodge Sprinter/Freightliner Whatevertheycallit is powered by a Benz diesel. (OT but those things seem to be a hit, seem them around Fresno a lot, plus FedEx bought a ton of them.) A lot of the new Freightliners are Benz powered.

I assume a LOT of the Dodge buyers will be tweaked if they had to change over to a MB diesel.

Though if you want a Cummins (5.9 ISB), or even a CAT (3126B 7.2L) you can get them in F-650/750 and backed by an Allison 6sp as well. There's a lot that goes into specifying the toys for the big boys. Nearly everying is a 36" frame width. Just start picking your parts. Tire sizes (IIRC either 500 or 540 revs/mile), diffs, trannies, engines. You piece them together to get the most efficient (for your use) machine available.

It's just funny that rumours start even if some truth behind them (Ford was a STOCKHOLDER in Cummins) but take on a life of their own and never die. I've heard the rumour for a while too, and knew that they didn't, but just took some time to find a reputable answer, and I'm pretty sure you can't get more reputable than the second link.

Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

 

Ford once had money in a stock fund, that included about 10% of Cummins, which started that rumor. Ford no longer ownes any part of Cummins, but the rumors continue...

There is even a link on Cummins's web page about that.

In a way, it's too bad it isn't true. If I could have an F-550 crew with an ISB in it, I'd be down at the dealership with checkbook in hand right now.

Cummins contract with Dodge is exclusive for pickups, so you can get the 5.9 ISB Cummins in an F-650 (medium duty commercial truck, bigger than a pickup), but unfortunately they don't come in 4x4. Other choices in the F-650 is a Cat 6, and the 6.0 Powerstroke.... but I have never seen one that had the Powerstroke in it.

EDIT: Oops, looks like we were both composing replies at the same time... If I'm not mistaken, didn't Ford's heavy duty line become Stirling, which is now associated somehow with Freightliner (a Diamler Chrysler company)?

Also, I think a lot of Dodge buyers would be hugely cheesed off if they dropped Cummins. DC likes to talk about German engineering, but if you go look at JD Power or Comsumer Reports, their reliability is behind American brands, and way behind Japaneese brands. A combination of Inverse Demand Curve (people think they are better because they are expensive) and a marketing triumph.

 

And you probably wouldn't be alone either. lol

You can get them in 4x4, just not directly from Ford. F650pickups.com makes 4x4 conversions. To say these trucks are uselessly cool is an understatement. The 4x4 650s just scream that you have issues with the size of your manhood. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img] (So foes the International CXT). Uterly useless for hauling 5th wheels (bed is about 6' in the air). And they'll set you back about $130K. Some areas that's a nice house on a bit of land. (Around here you can't even get an apartment turned condo in a bad area for that.) The have a deal with Ford I guess, or used to when I looked at their site a couple years ago, the 4x4 system was a Ford sourced product with warrantee. (They also do 450s and 550s as well.)

Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

 

Yeah that through me for a loop when I went back to the towing forum. Went err.. wtf...wait.. LOL Anyways...

Ok, it probably is Sterling (I remember the first few I saw they looked like F-750s). And yes, DC owns Sterling. I found the DC family page. DC owns the following (in the DC Truck Group):

And they also own Detroit Diesel (which I didn't know). They also used to own fire truck company American LaFrance.

Maybe they'll go with a Detroit. lol. Or maybe a MB designed unit with a Detroit name tag. More pallatable to the US buyer? We've sooo gone OT from the OP.

Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

 

Yeah, I suppose we shouldn't totally hijack the thread...

Back on topic... If I were to need a truck in the 16000 GVWR range, and couldn't wait for the 4500 or 5500 Dodge cab and chassis or to wait and see how the new power stroke does...

I'd probably look hard at the Chevy 5500 4x4 Duramax. They are bigger/wider than a pickup, and look pretty cool. Cab is pretty utilitarian, but their price isn't that much more than a fully loaded 3500 (probably around $50k by the time you chew them down on price, and put a flat bed on the chassis). The 6500 can be driven with a normal license (at least in Oregon) and comes with a Cat 6 that is more of a commercial engine, but then you can't get factory 4x4.

Other options: Look for a good, low milage 7.3 Ford F-550... or if you can live w/o 4WD think about F-650 with the Cat or Cummins. Yeah, they can be upfitted to 4x4, but you get into "major spendy" range.

If you had lots of money to spend, the M-2 class Freightliners are pretty nice. Though they don't list 4x4 as an option on their web page, I saw a SWAT truck the other day that was fulltime allwheel drive and appeared to have been factory that way. I know International will also make 4x4's for fire/rescue rigs, too. Either of those is likely to be more than twice as much as the Chevy 5500 (or Ford F-450), but it could be a case of you get what you pay for if you plan on putting hundreds and hundreds of thousands of miles on the thing.

Anyhow, here's a link to Chevy's m/d trucks.Chevy 5500

 

Thanks for all the great info.....I'll let you know what develops in the next week with this...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

I think we should check out the chevy 5500 as an option....problem is that we try to keep the business local with the big truck dealer around here cause we have 4 other trucks that get serviced there.....problem is they don't sell chevy....[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

 

Hey, having a local dealer that you have a relationship with and trust is something I would factor highly in the decision, too.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

warrior- how about that. GM bought them in 1929! I hope they keep their hands off the good stuff and not water it down and make it crap. looks like they bought them and for the most part left them alone and facilitate them...

anyway, id rather have ALLISON than a normal GM tranny. Something is definitely different and better with Allisons reputation than the (ab)normal GM line.
The list is countless of problems that I and others have experienced with GM trannies. I recent replaced mine in my Chevy @ 49K. Terrible quality for anything. I hear nothing BUT GOOD from the ALLISON stuff. Well, I dont care who is their owner as long as they dont start screwing around with it! on a side note, i think GM should have never bought SAAB. They will prob cut them and the executives at SAAB are pissed b/c GM sold their factories so if they wanted to split from GM it will be much more difficult to make cars again by them selves...

Ford bought Cummins,hmmmmm....what happens w/ international now? I seem to remember reading in M/T or car&Driver that the 6.0 had nothing to do with IH any more- that it was an all new design, all by Ford supposed to be stronger, more fuel efficient, etc... Ford bragged about it or maybe they just forgot to mention IH...who knows but im its good that somebody does. not to get too far off topic but the FORD tractors and stuff- who made their engines for them? IH? i know ford sold off (or did they) their tractor division to New Holland....Is Ford involved behind the scenes?

Anyway all great info to know for anyone insterested in diesels....

 

MB 2005+ diesel passenger cars are considered state of the art for diesel power, so that technology and development platform is there and promoted by management. Is Cummins financially and development viable or not desirable as an acquisition/joint venture versus home grown would be the issue.

(apology for tangent)