Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
Jun 27, 2005 | 03:30 PM
#5651
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
[quote]
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
Not around here[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] We've had our share of officers and couple times, capts. get convicted[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] The "get out of jail free card" around here. Even fireman try it. right now, we have 2 firemen waiting trial on DUI cases.
I give the convictions we get[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] to aggressive prosecutors and experts. When the blood/breathe test is given, that starts your time line. From there, you can go backwards to when initial contact was made. Then, you can use "burn off rate" to help establish a higher BA. Based on your breath/urine test. We aslo have aggressive defense attornies too. So, if you can afford to pay for your defense, then go for it. Usually, the DA won't go to trial if they can't win 80% of the time.
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
Originally posted by: rescuediver
Around here, if your near .08 your going to be charged. They will bring up your FST (field sobriety test) and time frame, from when yoiu take your chosen test. If that puts you over .08[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] They will take it to trial. Unless you plead it out for a lessor charge. We've had way to many DUI accidents and DUI accidents with deaths[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
your DUI defence lawyers must be pretty awful if they can't create reasonable doubt within .01 of a reading. do you ever charge UNDER .08 (if it's close?). do you ever get convictions on readings of .08 or .09? FSTs are NOT admissable here as evidence of impairment, BUT, they can be administered and entered as evidence to prove there were probable grounds to demand a sample.
All of North America has the same alcohol-related accident and death problems. The biggest tragedy is those are the toughest to get conviction on because police have difficulty establishing TIME, and DRIVER, plus the scene is usually chaos, which creates more opportunity for errors= aquittal or no charge at all. BUT, in a road block (of which we have many), they're prepared and waiting for DUIs. They can easily establish time, driver and perfect most of the pi$$y little details that are used to set guilty people free. SO like OFC said, a guy who hasn't really screwed up gets crucified, yet a person who destroys the lives of others walks. whadda rotten system.
and of course, the system is even better if you have a "get out of jail free card" (badge). In those cases there's NEVER a conviction cuz there's never a charge. a few years ago a city cop was smashed drunk to the point he's acting irrationally in a drive-thru. he gets picked up and driven home (like i'd ever get that lucky). afterwards, he goes back to get his veh., tries to drive home and gives his car a haircut on a parked flatdeck semi-trailer, and kills himself. Toxicology showed him somewhere between 2-3 times legal limit. Membership has it's privileges eh Md!
Around here, if your near .08 your going to be charged. They will bring up your FST (field sobriety test) and time frame, from when yoiu take your chosen test. If that puts you over .08[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] They will take it to trial. Unless you plead it out for a lessor charge. We've had way to many DUI accidents and DUI accidents with deaths[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
All of North America has the same alcohol-related accident and death problems. The biggest tragedy is those are the toughest to get conviction on because police have difficulty establishing TIME, and DRIVER, plus the scene is usually chaos, which creates more opportunity for errors= aquittal or no charge at all. BUT, in a road block (of which we have many), they're prepared and waiting for DUIs. They can easily establish time, driver and perfect most of the pi$$y little details that are used to set guilty people free. SO like OFC said, a guy who hasn't really screwed up gets crucified, yet a person who destroys the lives of others walks. whadda rotten system.
and of course, the system is even better if you have a "get out of jail free card" (badge). In those cases there's NEVER a conviction cuz there's never a charge. a few years ago a city cop was smashed drunk to the point he's acting irrationally in a drive-thru. he gets picked up and driven home (like i'd ever get that lucky). afterwards, he goes back to get his veh., tries to drive home and gives his car a haircut on a parked flatdeck semi-trailer, and kills himself. Toxicology showed him somewhere between 2-3 times legal limit. Membership has it's privileges eh Md!
Not around here[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] We've had our share of officers and couple times, capts. get convicted[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] The "get out of jail free card" around here. Even fireman try it. right now, we have 2 firemen waiting trial on DUI cases.
I give the convictions we get[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] to aggressive prosecutors and experts. When the blood/breathe test is given, that starts your time line. From there, you can go backwards to when initial contact was made. Then, you can use "burn off rate" to help establish a higher BA. Based on your breath/urine test. We aslo have aggressive defense attornies too. So, if you can afford to pay for your defense, then go for it. Usually, the DA won't go to trial if they can't win 80% of the time.
Jun 27, 2005 | 03:31 PM
#5652
Quad Patrol
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,213
Likes: 0
Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
[quote]
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
LMAO!
No, I haven't heard of it referred to that before[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] But, I can see why[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
Originally posted by: rescuediver
Why do you call it your princess resort? Don't you separate your transvestites[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img][sp][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
don't they all become Princesses after a long enuf period of incarceration? oh, i forgot, one's the mommy and one's the daddy. As the joke goes, which one would you rather be? Oh, the daddy? Alright, then why don't you get over here and suck mommy's......
Why do you call it your princess resort? Don't you separate your transvestites[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img][sp][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
No, I haven't heard of it referred to that before[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] But, I can see why[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Jun 27, 2005 | 03:43 PM
#5653
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Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
c'mon man, don't kid yourself. i suppose if the arresting officers didn't know the culprit...MAYBE. but if they're from the same police force, or detachment, it's a free ride.
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
I don't think there's much of a "Brass Pass" on DUIs in Cali. Or at least that I've ever heard of. Speeding or other "piddly" things, yes.
I don't think there's much of a "Brass Pass" on DUIs in Cali. Or at least that I've ever heard of. Speeding or other "piddly" things, yes.
Jun 27, 2005 | 04:08 PM
#5654
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Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
Originally posted by: OneFlyCowboy
Thats where ya'll differ from washington. FST's are Voluntary and any attorney will tell you to not do them and just go for the certified breathalyzer at the station. make em take you downtown... If you refuse the test at the station you loose your liscense...
Originally posted by: BlackandRedWarrior
If you refuse a FST you immediately loose your license. Right there the office yanks it. It's one of the little things you agree to when you sign the DL44 (Driver's Lic. application.)
If you refuse a FST you immediately loose your license. Right there the office yanks it. It's one of the little things you agree to when you sign the DL44 (Driver's Lic. application.)
Jun 28, 2005 | 12:09 AM
#5655
Pro Rider
Joined: Dec 2003
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Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected.
apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet).
yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet).
yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
Jun 28, 2005 | 12:43 AM
#5657
Quad Patrol
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,213
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Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
[quote]
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
I talk to her every once in awhile[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] Especially seeing Hoss has been away[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
You just need to break down and buy an actual "toy trailer" maybe I'll suggest that next time the misses and I talk[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Our camp trailer has those "goofy" bolts. You can put lug nuts on them[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] if you really wanted too.
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
Originally posted by: rescuediver
Are you sure you can go from a big trailer to a 11' Cab over with the family[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]that's a big step down[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
WHAT!! you been talking to my wife?! we're wondering the same thing. the room in a trailer just can't be beat. BUT, there's not enough room to haul all those toys on the quad deck (as the kids get into bigger quads). the combined room of the cargo trailer with a camper just might work. I went to look at a "toy hauler". basically, it's an 1987 22' travel trailer that's been gutted with a bed up front and all the appliances gone. it's got a cabinet built in that would make a great work bench and storage. it's still got room for another bed or possibly table. actually needs more toy room. lotsa windows too. and an ugly awning. so it'd be kinda practical for both sleep and hauling stuff.
but it looks really rough and extremely ugly. It's longer than i want it to be. it's not a proper toy hauler. the axles seem kinda goofy with no lugs. instead, you put bolts thru and onto drums. I'm really curious whether it would be lighter than a 16' enclosed Wells Cargo or Interstate type trailer. LAstly, the price is 1/2 of a cargo trailer, but it might be tough too sell later.
Ohhhhh, what do I do???
Are you sure you can go from a big trailer to a 11' Cab over with the family[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]that's a big step down[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
but it looks really rough and extremely ugly. It's longer than i want it to be. it's not a proper toy hauler. the axles seem kinda goofy with no lugs. instead, you put bolts thru and onto drums. I'm really curious whether it would be lighter than a 16' enclosed Wells Cargo or Interstate type trailer. LAstly, the price is 1/2 of a cargo trailer, but it might be tough too sell later.
Ohhhhh, what do I do???
You just need to break down and buy an actual "toy trailer" maybe I'll suggest that next time the misses and I talk[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Our camp trailer has those "goofy" bolts. You can put lug nuts on them[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] if you really wanted too.
Jun 28, 2005 | 01:02 AM
#5658
Quad Patrol
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,213
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Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected.
apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet).
yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected.
apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet).
yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected. apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet). yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected. apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet). yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
Jun 28, 2005 | 01:06 AM
#5659
Quad Patrol
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 15,213
Likes: 0
Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
I have 2 cases that come to mind, where fellow officers turned in officers or deputies that were breaking the law under color of authority[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] Both faced their day in court. One was aquitted, the other pled guilty. So, don't tell me we cover things up. I'm off the subject[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Jun 28, 2005 | 02:20 AM
#5660
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Ford Crew cabs w/7.3 Diesel
Originally posted by: rescuediver
Think not[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img] Our D.A.'s office got the hardest onviction there was[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] Scott Peterson[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] Only and last time I say I am from the same county, as that piece of garbage[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img] So, we are far from what you think of Ca. DA's doing a chitty job. First, you need to know how to do your job and not feel intimidated by over paid, bratty, celebrity, lawyers[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img] Rodney King, give me a break, those officers did NOTHING WRONG. They were prosecuted by the media[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] Gates was forced to resign and 2 officers were Federally prosecuted and served 18 months in federal prison in Pleasanton[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img] Ever been in a fight with someone on crank? heroin? PCP? Amazing what they can tolerate[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] I was in a fight with 7 other fellow officers[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] The guy did push ups with us on his back[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img] The U.S. is in a sad state of affairs in many ways[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] We are going down as a society[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img] Letting the liberal media depict what is right and what is wrong[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img] Who are they to know the difference. You got me going [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-mad.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img] Like I said-This isn't Mayberry, we have evolved from those days. Around here, we know once the public dis-trust you[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img] You may never get that trust back[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected.
apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet).
yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected.
apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet).
yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
Originally posted by: confusedbuyer
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected. apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet). yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.
on the FST, why would you want to arm the LE with evidencce of your impairment if you're drunk? i think our conviction rate is way lower. I'm guessing it's the legal systems' way of making sure they butter their fellow lawyers. our judges are all appointed to the bench and are ex-lawyers, NOT elected. apparently CA does a much chittier job getting convictions on murder charges (see OJ) and child abuse (see MJ). but hey, they're doing a bang up job of putting people away that haven't hurt anyone (yet). yes MD, i'm sure there are exceptions to the rule (i.e. cases where a ticket/charge IS issued to LE, instead of NO charge/ticket to fellow LEs, which i would think is more the norm than the exception). how many of the group that pummelled Rodney King went ahead with charges against their fellow officers?? we just had a similar situation here. there was a group of cops that mildly beat 2 POS low-life drug dealers. these were really low, street dealers. and one of the dumass, stupid cops rats out the group!! (at least a criminal wouldn't rat on the group, unless he was backed into a corner). the bleeding heart media had a field day with it. personally, i'm sure there were tons of folks like me that were glad they got exactly what they deserved. the criminals were made to look like poor victims, and the police made to look like villians. i wish the bleeding hearts had to walk a mile in the shoes of a cop working the low-life beat, and then see what they think.