Sounds good John.
If you do get up this way fishing, check out Little and Big Bay De Noc. Great Walleye fishing in both bays and starting in mid July, fantastic Chinook fishing in the Big Bay.
We do have great riding in the Upper Peninsula for now. We are fortunate to take advantage of corporate land such as Champion International, Mead, Stora Enso, etc; however I am concerned over the trend of these big corporations selling their property. Stora enso is going to sell a huge portion of their property here in the Upper Peninsula. international paper just sold a lagg parcel (5,500 acres) to one person. This was just a few miles from our camp and we can no longer ride through that area. They sold several thousand acres to multiple individuals by my friends camp. Can no longer go through that area. I would like to form an atv club in this area (Dickinson and Memominee County) we need to develop new trails and maintain existing trails and work with the DNR. If we dont take action now, in ten years we will be very limited where we can ride. Any ideas you have on this will certainly be appreciated.
Jigginjack

 

jigginjack,

Hope you got my e-mail. I think you mentioned the most important actions in developing a strong relationship with the DNR through your own club and maintenance on the system.

I would also look into having your local prison population get involved, if possible. It sounds like you are trying to form a club that just wants to get the job done as opposed to worrying that individual trail maintenance money might go to someone else if they (prisoners) get involved.

Believe me, the DNR is looking for local people like yourself to deal with on these trails. They've seen the downstate clubs that blow into town infrequently, prune some limbs with a couple locals and drive back to suburbia to wait for the mailman. They've also seen 'successful' clubs like the snowmobilers who actively seek out local people around these systems who they (the DNR) can deal with directly and in a timely fashion over coffee (oh, by the way, THESE folks more or less control what is done, as opposed to the club). Funny how that concept built a 25,000 member club!!

Most importantly, (try and) find out how the current sponsor of the trail actually views the future of this particular trail system. I have asked this question several times here downstate and the leaders would like to tell you they talk all the time, but never about something as important as this subject!

Also, as someone who doesn't have to make sure YOUR locally informed opinion of these trails conforms with and is approved by other club leaders in Lansing ORV Board Meetings; you can talk frankly with your members and achieve honest support(as opposed to the 'I don't have an opinion; whatever they say' membership). This is probably your biggest asset, as I know the folks in your area are not shy about standing up for the difference between right and wrong!

Lastly, DON'T promise the first few members that you sign up 'exclusive memberships' and 'preferrential benefits' for giving you $20 down payments to get things started. Really sounds bad when you have to tell someone later that 'dares' question why they get a break and you don't; "well, I had to tell them something!"

I will support you anyway I can from down here and will be up your way this fall.

Good Luck,

John
'00 SPO500

 

John,
you and I have never been upset with each other but I must say that after reading your last post that I did take offense.

Understand that two yrs ago when folks like myself [I think I was #29]helped to form the ''downstate''club you refer to,that we did so in beleiving that in ''TIME'' we could help to make things better for ATVers in our State.Let me tell you something about this downstate club.We've come A LONG way in two yrs time!

I can remember the time when I used to be happy just to find someone else[ONE PERSON] to ride my ATV with.Since this downstate club has been organized,I can ride allmost any wk end with 20-30 ATVers.

This downstate club,that ''blows''into town infrequently to ''prune'' some ''limbs''than goes home and waits by the mailbox,has done a real good job of maintaining the trails THEY were responsable for.THE JOB DID GET DONE!.You really **** me off with that statement!!How can YOU make a statement like the one above?I NEVER once seen your *** out there removing deadfall,posting confidence markers,or digging holes in the ground to install roadway signs in 85-90 degree weather.I never once seen YOU with a chainsaw in YOUR hand.I never once seen YOU with prunning shears in YOUR hand!Perhaps im wrong?

This downstate club has some of the most wonderful and giving folks in it that you could ever ask for.I understand that some of your answers did not get answered the way you would have liked them to,and to tell you the truth,I think you raised some very good questions,but please,dont slam the entire organization for it.It does have some very good folks in it!

Good Night,
Bill G

 

Bill,

I appreciate the fact that someone has finally come forward and decided to comment outside the 'friendly (censored) confines' of the club site.

Your comment;
"I never once saw YOU with a chainsaw in YOUR hand.I never once saw YOU with prunning shears in YOUR hand!"

Maybe we can get some questions answered 'out in the open' here and let folks know WHY, after I volunteered, that being THREATENED (and the next second 'loved') wasn't my idea of a good time with forestry tools present.

As far as my comment on what the DNR would IDEALLY like to see in a trail system management model; WHO do you think these comments come from and WHY do you think they are made? Do you think 'I' am the only person in this state that sees what the snowmobilers have done and HOW they did it?

Do you think that anyone that has seen this club's refusal to partner with 'others' that USE THE SAME TRAIL or IGNORE the people that ask about and are willing to help investigate prison labor; would come to any other conclusion other than that clubs feel 'ORV maintenance money' should be 'downstate club money'?.

Can we talk about the kids in West Michigan and the fact that they are told that there are no training quads availiable where 'they live' when a couple months later those same quads are up for raffle or sale on the club site? Would you like to discuss the whole attempt at rider education over here?

Nobody would ever say that any person that does trail maintenance isn't appreciated by all those that ride. The question is, to me, how many additional people would be out there 'doing it' if you had a club that didn't threaten that things would 'blow up in your face' any time you intelligently spoke your mind?

I'd be very happy to give you a long list of why I am no longer a member of 'the club' and why I never got the opportunity to join the maintenance program.

Fortunately, we can discuss this at length and not be concerned that our comments will be censored and the topic shut down.

Let's hear it!

John
'00 SP500

By the way, Bill, I do not INTEND to slam the whole organization and have commented several times on the good people in it on their site. It's just too bad that this club is unable to tolerate ideas that haven't been discussed previously.

 

John,
I never once had a problem with your questions,in fact,you asked some very good ones.

First off,
I'd like to know WHO threatened you and what was the threat?You have my e-mail.

John,
regarding the snowmobilers?They have an outstanding membership and they also have a GREAT trail system,BUT,it sure took them more than TWO yrs to get it that way!

Why we dont want to partner with other clubs who use the same trailway?This is not entirely true.This is a very sticky subject that I choose not to discuss on line.Im hoping you are going to make the Poker Run in Hulbert and we can further discuss it?I'll buy the dinner.

Raffled training ATVs?The truth of the matter is that the quads were being raffled with the full knowledge that they would also be replaced with others,and they were replaced with new ones.I know this to be a fact.

Rider Safety Training on the west side of the State?I have told you over telephone conversation that I PERSONALLY would be willing to go to your side of the State and provide some training as long as you could put this together.I've since heard not a peep from you about it.

In closing,I'll just say that I think you as an individule should be more patient with certain issue's.The Cycle Conservation Club did not get where they are today overnight,nor did the snowmobile guys.Please dont think MATVA should be an exception.

It takes time to achomplish sticky subjects,some you win,some you just keep hitting your head against the wall with.

Have a nice day!
Bill G.

 

John,

It seems a lot of your hostility is directed at me each time you get the chance to post. Whether it is on this forum or ours. I am not a person who likes to spend hours beating around a subject, instead I believe in getting right to the point so it can be done and over with. I would have to say that most of your comments directed at me are true. I do sensor and control our forum to a point. Notice that I have never deleted anyone’s posts even those starting conflicts. I only lock the topics that get out of hand or continue to go nowhere so those individuals move on and get over it. This concept has worked very well. Yes, all of your posts still remain and your not the only one I have done this to. I have also done it to Muddy (Bill G.) The intent of our forum was to bring ATV riders together, share idea’s and just enjoy each others company. Rated G. It was never going to be a place to sustain arguments and create conflict and it never will. It won’t even allow profanity, should this be deactivated?

John, as a fellow ATV rider you must be aware that this motor sport and the clubs that are supporting them are in there infant stages compared to the snowmobile and motorcycle associations. Do you believe they achieved their positions in a 2-year period?

When you’re ready to play an active roll in trying to achieve what you feel this sport needs and get your hands dirty, I believe you could be a very large asset to all riders. I truly believe this. Standing on a soapbox is not going to help anyone.

You’re still welcome to post on our forum. I still view you as a concerned and valuable MATVA Member. Let’s work out our differences.

Jeff

 

TRAIL UPDATE


IRON COUNTY ATV TRAILS UPDATE FROM IRON COUNTY

HERE IS AN UPDATE ON TRAILS THAT ARE OPEN:



#2 - Kimball to Gurney (13 miles)


#2-11-6 - Hurley to Kimball (10 miles)


#3 - Frontier to Harbor (10 miles)



#5A - Saxon to Potato Falls (5 miles)



#11 & 77 - Montreal to Iron Belt (8 miles)


51 - Hurley to Mercer (30 miles)


#8B & 8 - Pine lake to Mercer (14 miles)


#21 - Mercer to Murray's Landing (7 miles)


#11B-13-13B - Pine Lake to Island Lake (14 miles)


This is a total of 111 miles; 50% of Iron County's trails. More will be opening soon! Keep checking.

 

Bill,

I'll try to answer all your questions and maybe you could in turn shed some light on the ones I've asked previously (my last post):

your quote:
"regarding the snowmobilers?They have an outstanding membership and they also have a GREAT trail system,BUT,it sure took them more than TWO yrs to get it that way!"

Nobody will ever argue your statement; but what does it have to do with my original point that the WAY they accomplished this success was by SEEKING OUT AND GIVING THE LION'S SHARE OF MONEY TO 'LOCAL' CLUBS AND INDIVIDUALS who would then form a close bond with their DNR, Forestry service and local landowners!

Let's use an example: The CCC White Cloud Trail was maintained for over 30 years by locals who lived close by and did whatever quality job they did which isn't important for this argument. The quadders come in and say 'this is our trail now'; but when I ask their club and the CCC about all the knowledge of this system and opportunity to work together with these same people that is obviously lost in the process; I get answers like "well, we might as well just be another chapter of the CCC if we work with them" and "well,we actually GAVE them those trails anyway!" Sorry, this is NOT how the snowmobilers started out by 'competing' for what money goes into whose bank account (or is it really basically all the same anyways?.............)

your quote:
"Why we dont want to partner with other clubs who use the same trailway?This is not entirely true.This is a very sticky subject that I choose not to discuss on line."

See above. Nobody but me seems to think that after over two years, this question should be answered by NOW and NOT with the statement by club leaders that "I have no idea what their future view of the trail system is................"
We can only hope that someday someone with enough 'pull'in Lansing gets tired enough of dealing with your groups and forces BOTH of you to work side-by-side in back of some heavy equipment until EVERY trail is done! (I know, this pushes BACK the timetable for the club grader and the former 'mission statement' goal of a SE MI. riding area..........but hey, everybody will have learned a valuable lesson about how to deal with us 'outstaters' here in rural Michigan!)

your quote:
"Rider Safety Training on the west side of the State?I have told you over telephone conversation that I PERSONALLY would be willing to go to your side of the State and provide some training as long as you could put this together.I've since heard not a peep from you about it."

As much as I appreciated your offer, Bill, it was the club administration who informed me that THEY would be guaging the interest over here and then proceeding. Problem is, this effort ended up in embarrasment for myself.

I go around and make appointments to see school leaders and visit dealerships with a flyer in my hand touting 6 training centers on the east side of the state and one in G.R. (I had told the folks I volunteered with that I did not live in G.R. and was assured that we could probably find somewhere local to train and I agreed that it probably wouldn't be a problem).

IN BIG BOLD LETTERS on the bottom it says: "RIDE YOUR ATV OR LOAN VEHICLES ARE AVAILIABLE!"

So AFTER I've spent all my free time and presented myself as someone that a dealer or someone that is reponsible for children could trust; I e-mail the administration wanting to know where this place is and what the availiability of the quads are.
I get a short answer back that they don't know exactly WHERE the place is, doesn't tell me WHO over here I'm supposed to coordinate the training with (which at $80 per; write off the gas, you do the math) and most importantly that there are NO TRAINING QUADS AVAILIABLE!
Now, you know as well as I, that there are a lot of kids that can't get a quad but should have training because they ride their buddy's all the time. Is this 'anonymous' guy out of Grand Rapids (that the club trusts to train these kids) not 'worthy' of these used quads that the club is selling? Or is giving him the tools to do his job taking potential 'customers' off the training 'market'?

So now 'I' have to go back to these people and explain this (with my head bowed/shuffling my feet) while THEY are (quite understandably) saying things like "you didn't even know WHERE this place is, WHO would be there, had me hand out false info on the loaner quads (getting kid's hopes up) and wanted ME to send my kids there?

So, instead of taking this back to the club and seeking an explanation, I figured I'll just wait and see if anybody bothers to even contact me. Months later I'm in the general meeting and it's announced that the training program is 'in limbo' on account of missing fund money (though, it seems, that 'some' training still went on).

I told 'the powers that be' afterwards that I don't very much appreciate the b.s.;that I basically got SCREWED and what response do I get? One word............ "Agreed"

your quote:
"Raffled training ATVs?The truth of the matter is that the quads were being raffled with the full knowledge that they would also be replaced with others,and they were replaced with new ones.I know this to be a fact."

See above. Glad the club got to 'upgrade' as it's always better to have fewer brand new training quads than more kids having the chance to get trained.

It's pretty funny to me that people like Jeff (above) and others keep chiding me that 'when I want to play an active role' and 'get my hands dirty' that I can be an 'asset' to their club. I'm sorry, but when I try and make the effort, am told that things will 'blow up in my face' if I don't watch what I say (you'll have to take my word for it) and simple questions don't get answered........................I could care less what has to be said about my 'inaction' to 'save face' for the club.

Thanks Bill, for giving me one last chance to set the record straight. No, we haven't always agreed, but then you've never tried to dodge the subject or deny a thing that was true and I'll always respect you for that. By the way, I won't be up in Hulbert as I've always had other plans, but hope you all have the time of your lives. You guys have done a great job of promoting that event and hope it turns out to be bigger every year (sorry I snagged the 'executive suite' last year).

Jeff, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on what constitutes 'creating conflict' and 'sustaining arguments'. I think you have to understand that when simplest questions go unanswered and nobody will stand up and give direction on 'founding' issues; your site suddenly becomes a place where your only options are to defend those that are unwilling to answer; bash the questioner or lock the topic. In my case, I got the full treatment, harbor no ill will and consider the matter closed.

Best of luck to both of you AND the future of your club.

John

 

shut up and ride........... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] or start this this in a different thread!!!!!

 

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]I agree, I'll start a new thread on Who's goingto Iron County Wis or Hurley Rally?[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Mac The Red Rhino

See you all on the Trail be riding with Floodrunner and Jiggen Jack and Odin