efi advantages and disadvantages
#41
02-04-2006, 04:18 PM
efi advantages and disadvantages
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
Well, I suppose thats possble. But I've owned 5 fuel injected vehicles, and one with over 215,000 miles - I've never had to replace an ECU on any of them. As far as sensors, thats a moot point since these ATVs dont used A/F ratio sensors. If you talk to most auto mechanics, Any ECU built after 1990 are nearly bullet proof. Further, I've never heard of an ECU going out on a sled, which is a better comparison.
Originally posted by: 1bad450r
Ive had to change out the ECU on every fuel injected vehicle I have owned atleast once. I dont even want to get started on how many sensors I have changed. It gets expensive, thats all I am saying. When electrical things go bad it sucks, it especially sucks when it starts to go bad in an expensive and complex system like EFI. I can rebuild my carb sitting on the side of the road, I cant really say that for my fuel injection system.
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
It would seem the biggest concern that people have is with the ECU itself, and the durability of it. I'd just like to point out that I have an ECU in my For F250 truck, I take it on the dunes through the mud and everywhere in between. Snowmobiles have used ECUs for nearly 4 years, which is one of the most demanding environments around, -30 degrees, and those take a huge pounding depending on the type of snow they ride in. ECUs are in water craft as well - I dont even need to mention that environment. And as far as quads, Check out the Utes that are already using it, the Polaris 800 and Bombardier 800 Outlander. I have seen no ECU failures on those. Lets face it, ECU came out in the automobile industry in the late 70's and early 80's. They've had 20 years to harden them and perfect thier durability. And if you think you dont have electronics on your quad now, consider all the stock CDI's and rectifiers that have been put on quads for the last several years. Some of the aftermarket CDI's out there are quite amazing. Consider the Vortex CDI, which holds up to 10 ignition timing curves with the ability to switch between two of them on the fly. 135boom is correct, there are some very cheap CDI's out there with questionable history, but you get what you pay for. Further, the ECUs in these quad are of open loop origin. They dont depend on an oxygen sensor to make decisions. The main problem with the closed loop system, that depend on an oxygen sensor and when that sensor fails, it tells the ECU incorrect information which can lead to a lean condition and engine damage. Therefore, I feel pretty strongly that the ECU's on atv's are not only durable, but accurate as well. The only thing I'd like to add is the aftermarket EFI controller. I would suggest looking for one that is waterproof, and one thats easy to manipulate the EFI flow. If you get one, you might as well get one with all of the options avaiable. Some of them are so advanced that they can be tuned to work with a turbo, supercharger, and Nitrous along with a ton of other high flow mods. Another nice feature is the ability to adjust your injectors right there where you ride, with no need to download another program and upload it onto the controller.
It would seem the biggest concern that people have is with the ECU itself, and the durability of it. I'd just like to point out that I have an ECU in my For F250 truck, I take it on the dunes through the mud and everywhere in between. Snowmobiles have used ECUs for nearly 4 years, which is one of the most demanding environments around, -30 degrees, and those take a huge pounding depending on the type of snow they ride in. ECUs are in water craft as well - I dont even need to mention that environment. And as far as quads, Check out the Utes that are already using it, the Polaris 800 and Bombardier 800 Outlander. I have seen no ECU failures on those. Lets face it, ECU came out in the automobile industry in the late 70's and early 80's. They've had 20 years to harden them and perfect thier durability. And if you think you dont have electronics on your quad now, consider all the stock CDI's and rectifiers that have been put on quads for the last several years. Some of the aftermarket CDI's out there are quite amazing. Consider the Vortex CDI, which holds up to 10 ignition timing curves with the ability to switch between two of them on the fly. 135boom is correct, there are some very cheap CDI's out there with questionable history, but you get what you pay for. Further, the ECUs in these quad are of open loop origin. They dont depend on an oxygen sensor to make decisions. The main problem with the closed loop system, that depend on an oxygen sensor and when that sensor fails, it tells the ECU incorrect information which can lead to a lean condition and engine damage. Therefore, I feel pretty strongly that the ECU's on atv's are not only durable, but accurate as well. The only thing I'd like to add is the aftermarket EFI controller. I would suggest looking for one that is waterproof, and one thats easy to manipulate the EFI flow. If you get one, you might as well get one with all of the options avaiable. Some of them are so advanced that they can be tuned to work with a turbo, supercharger, and Nitrous along with a ton of other high flow mods. Another nice feature is the ability to adjust your injectors right there where you ride, with no need to download another program and upload it onto the controller.
#42
02-04-2006, 04:29 PM
efi advantages and disadvantages
Originally posted by: 1bad450r
Hey if you have gotten that kind of life out of your ECU's then thats great, just hasn't been my experiance. Like I said before I am not completely opposed to EFI in this sport but I am sceptical about it at this point. You have made some very good and valid points, I just think that I'll wait it out and see what happens with it.
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
Well, I suppose thats possble. But I've owned 5 fuel injected vehicles, and one with over 215,000 miles - I've never had to replace an ECU on any of them. As far as sensors, thats a moot point since these ATVs dont used A/F ratio sensors. If you talk to most auto mechanics, Any ECU built after 1990 are nearly bullet proof. Further, I've never heard of an ECU going out on a sled, which is a better comparison.
Originally posted by: 1bad450r
Ive had to change out the ECU on every fuel injected vehicle I have owned atleast once. I dont even want to get started on how many sensors I have changed. It gets expensive, thats all I am saying. When electrical things go bad it sucks, it especially sucks when it starts to go bad in an expensive and complex system like EFI. I can rebuild my carb sitting on the side of the road, I cant really say that for my fuel injection system.
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
It would seem the biggest concern that people have is with the ECU itself, and the durability of it. I'd just like to point out that I have an ECU in my For F250 truck, I take it on the dunes through the mud and everywhere in between. Snowmobiles have used ECUs for nearly 4 years, which is one of the most demanding environments around, -30 degrees, and those take a huge pounding depending on the type of snow they ride in. ECUs are in water craft as well - I dont even need to mention that environment. And as far as quads, Check out the Utes that are already using it, the Polaris 800 and Bombardier 800 Outlander. I have seen no ECU failures on those. Lets face it, ECU came out in the automobile industry in the late 70's and early 80's. They've had 20 years to harden them and perfect thier durability. And if you think you dont have electronics on your quad now, consider all the stock CDI's and rectifiers that have been put on quads for the last several years. Some of the aftermarket CDI's out there are quite amazing. Consider the Vortex CDI, which holds up to 10 ignition timing curves with the ability to switch between two of them on the fly. 135boom is correct, there are some very cheap CDI's out there with questionable history, but you get what you pay for. Further, the ECUs in these quad are of open loop origin. They dont depend on an oxygen sensor to make decisions. The main problem with the closed loop system, that depend on an oxygen sensor and when that sensor fails, it tells the ECU incorrect information which can lead to a lean condition and engine damage. Therefore, I feel pretty strongly that the ECU's on atv's are not only durable, but accurate as well. The only thing I'd like to add is the aftermarket EFI controller. I would suggest looking for one that is waterproof, and one thats easy to manipulate the EFI flow. If you get one, you might as well get one with all of the options avaiable. Some of them are so advanced that they can be tuned to work with a turbo, supercharger, and Nitrous along with a ton of other high flow mods. Another nice feature is the ability to adjust your injectors right there where you ride, with no need to download another program and upload it onto the controller.
It would seem the biggest concern that people have is with the ECU itself, and the durability of it. I'd just like to point out that I have an ECU in my For F250 truck, I take it on the dunes through the mud and everywhere in between. Snowmobiles have used ECUs for nearly 4 years, which is one of the most demanding environments around, -30 degrees, and those take a huge pounding depending on the type of snow they ride in. ECUs are in water craft as well - I dont even need to mention that environment. And as far as quads, Check out the Utes that are already using it, the Polaris 800 and Bombardier 800 Outlander. I have seen no ECU failures on those. Lets face it, ECU came out in the automobile industry in the late 70's and early 80's. They've had 20 years to harden them and perfect thier durability. And if you think you dont have electronics on your quad now, consider all the stock CDI's and rectifiers that have been put on quads for the last several years. Some of the aftermarket CDI's out there are quite amazing. Consider the Vortex CDI, which holds up to 10 ignition timing curves with the ability to switch between two of them on the fly. 135boom is correct, there are some very cheap CDI's out there with questionable history, but you get what you pay for. Further, the ECUs in these quad are of open loop origin. They dont depend on an oxygen sensor to make decisions. The main problem with the closed loop system, that depend on an oxygen sensor and when that sensor fails, it tells the ECU incorrect information which can lead to a lean condition and engine damage. Therefore, I feel pretty strongly that the ECU's on atv's are not only durable, but accurate as well. The only thing I'd like to add is the aftermarket EFI controller. I would suggest looking for one that is waterproof, and one thats easy to manipulate the EFI flow. If you get one, you might as well get one with all of the options avaiable. Some of them are so advanced that they can be tuned to work with a turbo, supercharger, and Nitrous along with a ton of other high flow mods. Another nice feature is the ability to adjust your injectors right there where you ride, with no need to download another program and upload it onto the controller.
1) Frame design. Most are still steel tubing. However aluminum square box designs are all over the two wheel dirt bikes and street bikes.
2) Large Bore. before the year 2000, you'd never see a sport ATV with anything much bigger than a 400cc motor. Although we are seeing larger bore machines, stock horsepower is still well below 50hp. Compare that to Sleds and watercraft.
3) Engine Design. Two stokes are be phased out altogether. However, extremely low emmission 2 stroke engines have been produced in the outboard motor field.
4) EFI - EFI has been put in every motorsports area now for at least 3 years. This includes street bikes, watercraft & sleds.
Change will be difficult for many - no doubt. But again, the fact that its hard to change is really in the mind of the average ATV consumer, and the real reason why we are behind in the first place.
#43
02-04-2006, 04:41 PM
efi advantages and disadvantages
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
Hey man, its no problem. Your points of concern are also valid. My main point in this discussion, as previously mentioned, is to help people understand the new technology, and what it means. Yamaha has a lot riding on this. If they can make a ECU for a sled that performs in the motorsports arena, and not one for a quad, then there is something seriously wrong! Lets face it, its a change in the way we think about tuning, and moding an ATV, but its really not that different. Like I have said before, I would prefer that ATVs were on the leading edge of technology. But clearly we are not. Consider the following areas in which we are behind ....
1) Frame design. Most are still steel tubing. However aluminum square box designs are all over the two wheel dirt bikes and street bikes.
2) Large Bore. before the year 2000, you'd never see a sport ATV with anything much bigger than a 400cc motor. Although we are seeing larger bore machines, stock horsepower is still well below 50hp. Compare that to Sleds and watercraft.
3) Engine Design. Two stokes are be phased out altogether. However, extremely low emmission 2 stroke engines have been produced in the outboard motor field.
4) EFI - EFI has been put in every motorsports area now for at least 3 years. This includes street bikes, watercraft & sleds.
Change will be difficult for many - no doubt. But again, the fact that its hard to change is really in the mind of the average ATV consumer, and the real reason why we are behind in the first place.
Originally posted by: 1bad450r
Hey if you have gotten that kind of life out of your ECU's then thats great, just hasn't been my experiance. Like I said before I am not completely opposed to EFI in this sport but I am sceptical about it at this point. You have made some very good and valid points, I just think that I'll wait it out and see what happens with it.
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
Well, I suppose thats possble. But I've owned 5 fuel injected vehicles, and one with over 215,000 miles - I've never had to replace an ECU on any of them. As far as sensors, thats a moot point since these ATVs dont used A/F ratio sensors. If you talk to most auto mechanics, Any ECU built after 1990 are nearly bullet proof. Further, I've never heard of an ECU going out on a sled, which is a better comparison.
Originally posted by: 1bad450r
Ive had to change out the ECU on every fuel injected vehicle I have owned atleast once. I dont even want to get started on how many sensors I have changed. It gets expensive, thats all I am saying. When electrical things go bad it sucks, it especially sucks when it starts to go bad in an expensive and complex system like EFI. I can rebuild my carb sitting on the side of the road, I cant really say that for my fuel injection system.
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
It would seem the biggest concern that people have is with the ECU itself, and the durability of it. I'd just like to point out that I have an ECU in my For F250 truck, I take it on the dunes through the mud and everywhere in between. Snowmobiles have used ECUs for nearly 4 years, which is one of the most demanding environments around, -30 degrees, and those take a huge pounding depending on the type of snow they ride in. ECUs are in water craft as well - I dont even need to mention that environment. And as far as quads, Check out the Utes that are already using it, the Polaris 800 and Bombardier 800 Outlander. I have seen no ECU failures on those. Lets face it, ECU came out in the automobile industry in the late 70's and early 80's. They've had 20 years to harden them and perfect thier durability. And if you think you dont have electronics on your quad now, consider all the stock CDI's and rectifiers that have been put on quads for the last several years. Some of the aftermarket CDI's out there are quite amazing. Consider the Vortex CDI, which holds up to 10 ignition timing curves with the ability to switch between two of them on the fly. 135boom is correct, there are some very cheap CDI's out there with questionable history, but you get what you pay for. Further, the ECUs in these quad are of open loop origin. They dont depend on an oxygen sensor to make decisions. The main problem with the closed loop system, that depend on an oxygen sensor and when that sensor fails, it tells the ECU incorrect information which can lead to a lean condition and engine damage. Therefore, I feel pretty strongly that the ECU's on atv's are not only durable, but accurate as well. The only thing I'd like to add is the aftermarket EFI controller. I would suggest looking for one that is waterproof, and one thats easy to manipulate the EFI flow. If you get one, you might as well get one with all of the options avaiable. Some of them are so advanced that they can be tuned to work with a turbo, supercharger, and Nitrous along with a ton of other high flow mods. Another nice feature is the ability to adjust your injectors right there where you ride, with no need to download another program and upload it onto the controller.
It would seem the biggest concern that people have is with the ECU itself, and the durability of it. I'd just like to point out that I have an ECU in my For F250 truck, I take it on the dunes through the mud and everywhere in between. Snowmobiles have used ECUs for nearly 4 years, which is one of the most demanding environments around, -30 degrees, and those take a huge pounding depending on the type of snow they ride in. ECUs are in water craft as well - I dont even need to mention that environment. And as far as quads, Check out the Utes that are already using it, the Polaris 800 and Bombardier 800 Outlander. I have seen no ECU failures on those. Lets face it, ECU came out in the automobile industry in the late 70's and early 80's. They've had 20 years to harden them and perfect thier durability. And if you think you dont have electronics on your quad now, consider all the stock CDI's and rectifiers that have been put on quads for the last several years. Some of the aftermarket CDI's out there are quite amazing. Consider the Vortex CDI, which holds up to 10 ignition timing curves with the ability to switch between two of them on the fly. 135boom is correct, there are some very cheap CDI's out there with questionable history, but you get what you pay for. Further, the ECUs in these quad are of open loop origin. They dont depend on an oxygen sensor to make decisions. The main problem with the closed loop system, that depend on an oxygen sensor and when that sensor fails, it tells the ECU incorrect information which can lead to a lean condition and engine damage. Therefore, I feel pretty strongly that the ECU's on atv's are not only durable, but accurate as well. The only thing I'd like to add is the aftermarket EFI controller. I would suggest looking for one that is waterproof, and one thats easy to manipulate the EFI flow. If you get one, you might as well get one with all of the options avaiable. Some of them are so advanced that they can be tuned to work with a turbo, supercharger, and Nitrous along with a ton of other high flow mods. Another nice feature is the ability to adjust your injectors right there where you ride, with no need to download another program and upload it onto the controller.
1) Frame design. Most are still steel tubing. However aluminum square box designs are all over the two wheel dirt bikes and street bikes.
2) Large Bore. before the year 2000, you'd never see a sport ATV with anything much bigger than a 400cc motor. Although we are seeing larger bore machines, stock horsepower is still well below 50hp. Compare that to Sleds and watercraft.
3) Engine Design. Two stokes are be phased out altogether. However, extremely low emmission 2 stroke engines have been produced in the outboard motor field.
4) EFI - EFI has been put in every motorsports area now for at least 3 years. This includes street bikes, watercraft & sleds.
Change will be difficult for many - no doubt. But again, the fact that its hard to change is really in the mind of the average ATV consumer, and the real reason why we are behind in the first place.
#44
02-04-2006, 05:16 PM
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efi advantages and disadvantages
This is a very good discussion. All of the people in it have brought up some very good points.
New things that come out go through an evolution and it goes something like this:
Crap
Something a little better than crap
Alright
Better than alright
Ok
Better than ok
Good
Real good
Super good
I tend to buy something when it gets to good or real good. IMHO I think most ATV EFI's are around Ok to better than OK. Go on the Polaris forum and see what I'm talking about. Most are happy with there EFI quad.........but.....
.............When carb engines go bad the tech usually fixes the carb and that is the end of the problem. With EFI I have seen the problem go on and on and on and no one can figure out the problem and that puts a bad taste in the consumers mouth.
Case in point. I have a Mazda that set the check engine light. I have a buddy that is a 30 year Mazda mechanic. He pulled the code and looked it up. Now here is the kicker. He told me the logic tree is THREE PAGES long to diagnose!!!!! He said it could be up to 8 to 10 hours to go through the whole three pages!!!
Now I like EFI but at over a gran to fix my car, that just sucks!!!!!!!
ODP there is real data to back up the carb wins in the HP wars. I talked with a well respected fuel injection guy that only sell EFI units. I don't want to get into a long dissussion here but it has to do with evaporation of the fuel in manifold. It cools the charge and pulls in more denser air. A port EFI can not do this. All in all, I would agree with you when you say it's about a draw. THE HP is very small and not really worth talking about.
Sure you can clear the codes. But if I own a quad shop and a quad comes in with a "clean blackboard" I'm going to know something is up!!!!! One of these days (If not now?) it will be written into the paper work, if your quad comes into the shop for warrenty work and the puter is blank they are going to turn down the warrenty on it.
It is a big issue on diesel trucks now. The truck makers better not find out that you put a box on one of there engines. If they do, your had.
They both have good and bad points.
New things that come out go through an evolution and it goes something like this:
Crap
Something a little better than crap
Alright
Better than alright
Ok
Better than ok
Good
Real good
Super good
I tend to buy something when it gets to good or real good. IMHO I think most ATV EFI's are around Ok to better than OK. Go on the Polaris forum and see what I'm talking about. Most are happy with there EFI quad.........but.....
.............When carb engines go bad the tech usually fixes the carb and that is the end of the problem. With EFI I have seen the problem go on and on and on and no one can figure out the problem and that puts a bad taste in the consumers mouth.
Case in point. I have a Mazda that set the check engine light. I have a buddy that is a 30 year Mazda mechanic. He pulled the code and looked it up. Now here is the kicker. He told me the logic tree is THREE PAGES long to diagnose!!!!! He said it could be up to 8 to 10 hours to go through the whole three pages!!!
Now I like EFI but at over a gran to fix my car, that just sucks!!!!!!!
ODP there is real data to back up the carb wins in the HP wars. I talked with a well respected fuel injection guy that only sell EFI units. I don't want to get into a long dissussion here but it has to do with evaporation of the fuel in manifold. It cools the charge and pulls in more denser air. A port EFI can not do this. All in all, I would agree with you when you say it's about a draw. THE HP is very small and not really worth talking about.
Sure you can clear the codes. But if I own a quad shop and a quad comes in with a "clean blackboard" I'm going to know something is up!!!!! One of these days (If not now?) it will be written into the paper work, if your quad comes into the shop for warrenty work and the puter is blank they are going to turn down the warrenty on it.
It is a big issue on diesel trucks now. The truck makers better not find out that you put a box on one of there engines. If they do, your had.
They both have good and bad points.
#45
02-04-2006, 05:27 PM
efi advantages and disadvantages
Originally posted by: 1bad450r
The low emmission 2 stroke design is definatly something I hope to see break its way into the quad world.
The low emmission 2 stroke design is definatly something I hope to see break its way into the quad world.
Honda is going to release their new EXP-2 motorcycle. It's a 2-stroke
Bimota's V-due, is a 2 stroke street bike.
And Aprila is licensing clean burn 2 stroke technology from Orbital of Australia. So they will be able to produce new clean burning low emission 2 stroke motorcycles.
#46
02-04-2006, 05:35 PM
efi advantages and disadvantages
Originally posted by: Doctorturbo
This is a very good discussion. All of the people in it have brought up some very good points.
New things that come out go through an evolution and it goes something like this:
Crap
Something a little better than crap
Alright
Better than alright
Ok
Better than ok
Good
Real good
Super good
I tend to buy something when it gets to good or real good. IMHO I think most ATV EFI's are around Ok to better than OK. Go on the Polaris forum and see what I'm talking about. Most are happy with there EFI quad.........but.....
.............When carb engines go bad the tech usually fixes the carb and that is the end of the problem. With EFI I have seen the problem go on and on and on and no one can figure out the problem and that puts a bad taste in the consumers mouth.
Case in point. I have a Mazda that set the check engine light. I have a buddy that is a 30 year Mazda mechanic. He pulled the code and looked it up. Now here is the kicker. He told me the logic tree is THREE PAGES long to diagnose!!!!! He said it could be up to 8 to 10 hours to go through the whole three pages!!!
Now I like EFI but at over a gran to fix my car, that just sucks!!!!!!!
ODP there is real data to back up the carb wins in the HP wars. I talked with a well respected fuel injection guy that only sell EFI units. I don't want to get into a long dissussion here but it has to do with evaporation of the fuel in manifold. It cools the charge and pulls in more denser air. A port EFI can not do this. All in all, I would agree with you when you say it's about a draw. THE HP is very small and not really worth talking about.
Sure you can clear the codes. But if I own a quad shop and a quad comes in with a "clean blackboard" I'm going to know something is up!!!!! One of these days (If not now?) it will be written into the paper work, if your quad comes into the shop for warrenty work and the puter is blank they are going to turn down the warrenty on it.
It is a big issue on diesel trucks now. The truck makers better not find out that you put a box on one of there engines. If they do, your had.
They both have good and bad points.
This is a very good discussion. All of the people in it have brought up some very good points.
New things that come out go through an evolution and it goes something like this:
Crap
Something a little better than crap
Alright
Better than alright
Ok
Better than ok
Good
Real good
Super good
I tend to buy something when it gets to good or real good. IMHO I think most ATV EFI's are around Ok to better than OK. Go on the Polaris forum and see what I'm talking about. Most are happy with there EFI quad.........but.....
.............When carb engines go bad the tech usually fixes the carb and that is the end of the problem. With EFI I have seen the problem go on and on and on and no one can figure out the problem and that puts a bad taste in the consumers mouth.
Case in point. I have a Mazda that set the check engine light. I have a buddy that is a 30 year Mazda mechanic. He pulled the code and looked it up. Now here is the kicker. He told me the logic tree is THREE PAGES long to diagnose!!!!! He said it could be up to 8 to 10 hours to go through the whole three pages!!!
Now I like EFI but at over a gran to fix my car, that just sucks!!!!!!!
ODP there is real data to back up the carb wins in the HP wars. I talked with a well respected fuel injection guy that only sell EFI units. I don't want to get into a long dissussion here but it has to do with evaporation of the fuel in manifold. It cools the charge and pulls in more denser air. A port EFI can not do this. All in all, I would agree with you when you say it's about a draw. THE HP is very small and not really worth talking about.
Sure you can clear the codes. But if I own a quad shop and a quad comes in with a "clean blackboard" I'm going to know something is up!!!!! One of these days (If not now?) it will be written into the paper work, if your quad comes into the shop for warrenty work and the puter is blank they are going to turn down the warrenty on it.
It is a big issue on diesel trucks now. The truck makers better not find out that you put a box on one of there engines. If they do, your had.
They both have good and bad points.
Doc,
We agree that any difference in power between carb and EFI is moot. If there is any real data, I would like to see it. I have folks that have been working on EFI for years as well, and they are telling me that there is no difference. However, I realize that's not first hand info, only what they are telling me. If the difference is incredibly minor in a large V-8 car, I can’t imagine the tiny difference if any in an ATV motor. The point is beyond moot.
As far as codes go, there is no law that says you can’t replace or charge your battery. If that just happens to clear the codes, then so be it. I have never seen anybody from any shop say because your computer is clear, you are at fault. Man, they have to have evidence! Besides, like I have already stated, this warranty issue is true with all of the aftermarket parts including piston, big bore, exhaust - you name it. And, the warranty is only 90 days. This is not something like a 5 year, 50,000 mile warranty on a car. Do you have any idea how fast 90 days goes by?
I know you guys love to bring up the past experience with automobiles, but you see it really doesn’t fit. I think you would have more valid points if you used the motor sports argument. As far as your Polaris point, I've never seen an ATV EFI problem go on and on, and that’s true with sleds too. You're point was with automobile EFI, and who knows what make model and type of system that was, let alone, what year it was. I'll just leave my sled examples and your Polaris examples as evidence in my favor.
By the way, you want to let me know what you think works better with a turbo or N20? Carb or EFI?
#47
02-04-2006, 10:35 PM
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efi advantages and disadvantages
As far as codes go, there is no law that says you can’t replace or charge your battery. If that just happens to clear the codes, then so be it. I have never seen anybody from any shop say because your computer is clear, you are at fault. Man, they have to have evidence! Besides, like I have already stated, this warranty issue is true with all of the aftermarket parts including piston, big bore, exhaust - you name it. And, the warranty is only 90 days. This is not something like a 5 year, 50,000 mile warranty on a car. Do you have any idea how fast 90 days goes by?
Bomb has a 3 year warranty on there quads. Others will have to step up or loose market share.
By the way, you want to let me know what you think works better with a turbo or N20? Carb or EFI?
N2O is a different story. I will only run wet systems. I have seen and heard way too many stories about a small piece of crap in an injector. When this happens it's bye bye cylinder. It don't take much with an injector.
So to answer your question, EFI for the turbo and carb for N2O.
Here is just a few unhappy EFI owners:
Unhappy EFI owner
By the way, you want to let me know what you think works better with a turbo or N20? Carb or EFI?
I will also say that within 7 years or less ATV's will have closed loop systems on them.
#48
02-04-2006, 10:57 PM
efi advantages and disadvantages
Doctorturbo
Thats good info about Polaris. Thats the first one I've heard of and I think the heat should be on them to make the fix. But, in all my days on the forum, thats honestly the very first I've heard. I could give you a stack of carb issues that would be several hundred pages long in response.
I agree with you on the turbo with EFI, but disagree with you on the N20 with Carb. There are two systems I am intimately familiar with and both would be considered dry by your standards. The Boondocker and the Boss Noss system. Both have a pretty good history with Fuel Injection. Although, I consider Boondocker more of a play nitrous, the Boss Noss is in my opinion more of the caliber of NX or NOS but much safer than both of them, and can be used by the everyday rider. Why does N20 work so well with Fuel Injection? Because the two systems I mention use an EFI controller to do the calculation to increase the fuel when you push the N20 Button. To try and make a carb do that, you are looking for more difficultly and more variables that enter into the rich/lean formula. You may be thinking of another system that does not have an EFI controller to help with those variables in the EFI.
The Boondocker and Boss Noss have been combining EFI and Nitrous with sleds for several years now. Only Boss has entered into the EFI market with Nitrous on ATVs. But, I expect that to change as acceptance of N20 as a valid form of performance increases due to the limitations of new 2 stroke power, and a growing successfull history of these systems in the snowmobile industry.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with Carb and N20, its just that there are more variables to consider, especially with systems such as the NX and NOS. However, thats not true with the the other two systems I mention, which is why they have gained such acceptance in the Sled industry.
Thats good info about Polaris. Thats the first one I've heard of and I think the heat should be on them to make the fix. But, in all my days on the forum, thats honestly the very first I've heard. I could give you a stack of carb issues that would be several hundred pages long in response.
I agree with you on the turbo with EFI, but disagree with you on the N20 with Carb. There are two systems I am intimately familiar with and both would be considered dry by your standards. The Boondocker and the Boss Noss system. Both have a pretty good history with Fuel Injection. Although, I consider Boondocker more of a play nitrous, the Boss Noss is in my opinion more of the caliber of NX or NOS but much safer than both of them, and can be used by the everyday rider. Why does N20 work so well with Fuel Injection? Because the two systems I mention use an EFI controller to do the calculation to increase the fuel when you push the N20 Button. To try and make a carb do that, you are looking for more difficultly and more variables that enter into the rich/lean formula. You may be thinking of another system that does not have an EFI controller to help with those variables in the EFI.
The Boondocker and Boss Noss have been combining EFI and Nitrous with sleds for several years now. Only Boss has entered into the EFI market with Nitrous on ATVs. But, I expect that to change as acceptance of N20 as a valid form of performance increases due to the limitations of new 2 stroke power, and a growing successfull history of these systems in the snowmobile industry.
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with Carb and N20, its just that there are more variables to consider, especially with systems such as the NX and NOS. However, thats not true with the the other two systems I mention, which is why they have gained such acceptance in the Sled industry.
#49
02-05-2006, 02:36 AM
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efi advantages and disadvantages
There are two systems I am intimately familiar with and both would be considered dry by your standards.
To try and make a carb do that, you are looking for more difficultly and more variables that enter into the rich/lean formula.
I have a gen 6 Accel that I need to install on a big block. I can do the dry thing, but I'm just going to go with a four solenoid fogger system.
Nothing wrong with a dry system. It's just that I prefer a wet system. Just different strokes..........well you know.
#50
02-05-2006, 09:55 AM
efi advantages and disadvantages
Originally posted by: Doctorturbo
Sorry, I don't consider the Boonies a dry system. I consider it a hi-breed. At least if you are talking about the Carb version? I don't know anything about their injection system or the Boss Noss system. A pure dry system augments the fuel through the injectors commanded through a puter.
I don't know what this means? I tune the carb to the engine. I don't care if the engine has juice on it or not. I then install a juice system, put in the jets I want for the HP I want and go have fun. Not enough power? In 5 minutes I can put different jets in a go faster. I never tune my carb for the nitrous, that is why I like it. It's totally independant.
I have a gen 6 Accel that I need to install on a big block. I can do the dry thing, but I'm just going to go with a four solenoid fogger system.
Nothing wrong with a dry system. It's just that I prefer a wet system. Just different strokes..........well you know.
There are two systems I am intimately familiar with and both would be considered dry by your standards.
To try and make a carb do that, you are looking for more difficultly and more variables that enter into the rich/lean formula.
I have a gen 6 Accel that I need to install on a big block. I can do the dry thing, but I'm just going to go with a four solenoid fogger system.
Nothing wrong with a dry system. It's just that I prefer a wet system. Just different strokes..........well you know.
With EFI, they just eliminate the gas nozzle and boost up the EFI when nitrous is injected into the air filter. That makes it real easy but you have to have an EFI controller to do that. Again, the Boss regulates its nitrous so you always have a constant. Boondocker actually adds a pressure transducer to measure the bottle pressure and increase or decrease the EFI depending on bottle pressure. Again, the problem is that with that system, you’ll never get a consistent hit. Sometimes you’ll feel it strongly when the bottle is out in the sun, and sometimes you won’t feel it at all.
There have been so many advancements with N20 that it will be about a year before the new regulated systems catch on. We have about 4 years of poor systems to overcome.