if you make a random change somewhere in the middle of your map with your usb power commander and lap top do you draw a graph of some sort so that you can log exactly where you changed the map? what if you dont like this change? then you have to ride back to the lap top, plug back in and figure out what area you moved the wrong way and fix it. with the trinity "style" box its so easy to log what you have done in your head and the lights show you right where your map is without plugging in to anything. for instance my map is 2/ 3.5 /4. there is nothing wrong with a power commander but if you want light and user freindly and water tight and inexpensive and easy to mount you cant beat the trinity box. and thats why I satarted this post in the first place. to help keep people from buying parts twice because they bought the wrong part or an inferior part the first time. as you said , I have used a power commander before and I am familiar with them and didnt even consider one for this bike. its just not necessary and way more expensive and more complicated .dont get me wrong , I am not a fan of trinity racing . the box just works .

 

I can make manual button adjustments as well but I have no trouble keeping track of any changes I make.
Since we dialed it in on the Dyno there is no more need for adjusting.

I do feel that the PCIII is superior in every way to the dobeck style of carb logic tuning controllers and if you intend on doing internal engine mods a PCIII becomes very necessary as the other contollers do not have enough head room and can be maxed out in a hurry. I feel that's important information as well for those considering future mods on their 700R.

 

so if you go from sea level to 4200 feet at say ? sand mountain nv or utah you wont readjust your mixture? ok guys if you have your own in house dyno to allow you to micro manage your fuel curve or if you like complicated gadjets that have lots of confusing features that you probably will never use and like spending extra money then by all means by the power commander and a zip lock bag to keep it in. if you want to tune your bike quickly and easily to perfection anywhere without alot confusion and like saving your money for more useful stuff. buy the Trinity box which works flawlessly.

 

The onboard sensors compensate for alltitude air temp and air density, you do not have to micro manage your fuel system.


Like I said before I'm glad your happy with your trinity box, everyone likes different stuff, that's why there so many choices out there. I just feel there's better choices[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

quote( The onboard sensors compensate for alltitude air temp and air density, you do not have to micro manage your fuel system.


Like I said before I'm glad your happy with your trinity box, everyone likes different stuff, that's why there so many choices out there. I just feel there's better choices[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

This statement is untrue. the raptor 700's EFI system only monitors air density which will help a small amount at altitude but will not completely compensate. Randy , do you own stock in power commander corp or is this the only brand you sell in the store?

copied from Trinity's web site....
You may think your Raptor 700R's EFI will compensate for a new pipe & intake, but in reality it ONLY MOITORS AIR DENSITY, essently stealing power from your new aftermarket performance parts. The Stage IV EFI Features on-the-fly adjustability and bolts on in just minutes with little effort. Unlike competitors' systems, the Trinity Racing EFI controller will optimize your Raptor's EFI right out of the box so there's no need to download maps or deal with confusing mapping programs

 

That statment has been on all the websites that sell controllers, I have know that since Augest of 05 when I started modding my 700R.
How long have you owned a 700R now? Once I got my 700R dialed in I did not have to play with maps anymore, going on a year and a half now and I have friends that have been from sea level to 6000 ft and they did not have to change the maps so I know what I'm talking about on this subject and made no untrue statements. I don't have a store or sell PCIII's in fact I'm looking at a new more sophisticated controller in the future. I just have helped tons of peeps with their fuel maps as I have been playing with power commanders for a few years now, we ran them in the 1200cc mini sprints running on methanol. The 700R's efi system is very limited and you will run lean when you put on a high flow filter and exhaust system with out a controller but it can and will compensate for temp and altitude changes, that's one of the few things it will do. This is known stuff, I suggest you get a service manual and study it and look at the 7 sensors the 700R does have and what they do and go and visit some of the forums dedicated to the 700R. If you never plan on doing any internal engine mods other than boring it to 105 (734 kit) and camming it then your Trinity controller will be just fine as long as it doesn't go gunny sack on you.(which I have seen a few of the Dobeck style do) If you want to do the kind of mods that will take you into the 70+ HP range your going to have to get a better controller like this onelink or the PCIII and that's just the way it is. Look I'm not trying to change your mind or dis on your choice, you bought what you wanted and your happy with it that's great. I just wanted to point out that the dobeck style controllers or only good to a point and then a contoller with more tuning options and headroom is needed. Why is that so hard to swallow? Don't want to believe me, give Rocket Factory a call(775-786-1372) and ask for Jason. He will be glad to share his real world experience tuning on the dyno with all types of controllers and when all is said and done they use PCIII's. Link


Your info is great for those that never plan on doing any serious builds, my info is for those that want to get serious with their 700R's or peeps who like to tune and use the software and their laptops.

Kinda like you got serious with your Busa DS [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Randy, if you look at the first line of my first post in this topic you will see that I said this info was for people looking to bolt on a few simple mods and not waste a bunch of money unnecessarily . never have I said a word about cams and bore kits or buildg a full bore race motor . if I want to build a hill racer I wouldnt even consider starting with a "700R" as it would be a total waste of time and money . I have bikes in the shop that will blow away any 700R ON THE PLANET even with one plug wire pulled off . I was just trying to help people who wanted to get a little more fun out of a stock bike and you have done nothing but force your opinion where it wasnt requested and didnt apply. ok ,you like the power commander and think its best and have no trouble operating it. I got it. will or will not the trinty box work perfectly on a STOCK motor with a pipe and intake kit?? yes it will. is it easier and cheaper smaller and lighter and water sealed? yes it is . so why argue with me ? just let it go dude.

 

Sonic, I'm not arguing, just debating and putting the info out there same as you, sorry if you take my posting as trying to argue, that was not my intent, but after going back and reading my posts, your right that's the way it looks so I'm sorry for that. I know your an intelligent guy, I've watched you post on here for quite a while now and respect and admire the busa DS bikes you have built. I guess I should have articulated where I was coming from better as it was not my intention to tick you off. Anyone else who owns one of these 700R's long enough is eventually going to mod it if they like to dune it, I'm just trying to convey that if they do ever want to go beyond stock, think about it first before buying the cheaper controllers out there then having to replace them with one that will get the job done later on which will save them money in the long run. As far as bolt on bikes, some people do have good luck with the Dobeck style controllers as you did, and when they do they are exactly as you have stated. Others have had no luck with them at all and never could get them dialed in and ended up getting a PCIII. Not everyone has access to a dyno to dial there controller in and there are no maps matched to specific sets of mods for these style controllers, just suggested settings that don't always work for some. Dyno Jet and fuel moto have maps for popular exhausts and filter kits and fuel moto preloads them so people can plug them in a go ride and there bikes run good enough for them which is far more simple for them then riding and adjusting and riding an adjusting and still having an area in the curve that isn't right, I don't know how many times I've seen people post on the Raptor specific forums about not being able to get their 700 running right with the suggested settings and trying others settings and still not getting satisfaction and after spending a bunch of time messing with it give up and get a programable controller with a pre loaded map and then are totally happy with the way their bike runs and wish they would have just went that route in the first place. I wish I would have included this in my first post as then you could have seen where I was coming from on this and just not another guy pushing a certain controller just because it's what I got. Some peeps don't want to do anything but plug and play and the programable controllers are just simpler for them.
Again, it wasn't my intent to get into a pissin match with you and if we ever cross paths at Dumont or Sand Mountain I'd love to check out your Busa DS in person and if you a drinking man invite you to my camp and buy you a crown n coke [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

The Trinity is $4 cheaper than what I paid for my PC3, and the weight difference is absolutely negligable on a "stock" quad. I do wish the PC3 was sealed, but my setup has no issues.

I belong to a number of 700r boards, and the horror stories of newbies who buy a pipe and intake, and are totally lost at tuning the Dobeck clone boxes are beyond counting.

I am glad that you have found something you like, but as I said before, what could be easier than unwrapping a brand new PC3 with a dynoed map installed and hooking it up? For the extra 4 bucks, I would go that way every time.

 

hahaha....I read through this whole thread, and was shaking my head the whole time! You asked Randy if he has stock in dynojet?....well, I am curious...do you have stock in trinity...doebeck...or what?
The FACT of the matter is, the PCIII is a far better unit. It is a FAR more proven unit as well. You see many street bikes out there running around with trinity efi modules....or other TFI modules....I dont! I see everyone using power commanders, and with great success. They are a rock solid unit, and super easy to tune. I have been using them for almost 10 years now.
It surprises me that some one with your knowledge would sell himself sooo short on a fuel module like this one. Do they work...yeah, but not nearly as well as a PCIII. Funny, cause I NEVER see people getting rid of PCIII's and getting doebeck style efi units. Wonder why. Its cause like Randy said, people play hell trying to get a tune on those things. How can you beat just ordering a PCIII from fuel moto for $259 shipped that is pre-mapped for your setup, and all you have to do is plug it in? No more out riding up and down the driveway pushing buttons and watching LED's flash, hoping you are moving in the right direction.
I have heard from countless people that have dyno tuned that the PCIII is easier to tune and also usually shows better numbers because of that. You can tune in 250rpm increments....its talking to your TPS....you have the accel pump feature...soon enough there will be an add-on ignition module for it. You cant beat it for the price.....and you are certainly not going to beat it with a TFI unit!
I also dont get how you think the PCIII's are so frail? Do I cross lakes with my machine or directly apply the power washer to the unit...NO, but I ride in the pacific northwest, and we occasionally have rain here.....haha. I have not had ONE problem. That goes for the street bike too. As long as they are not being submerged or pressure washed, they are just fine at repelling water!
It cracks me up that part of your argument is that they are so small and light weight. HAHAHAHAHA. Dude, you're talking about ounces. You run over a pile of dog crap and you will greatly exceed any difference there was between the weight of a PCIII and a Doebeck. Also, I have not ran into anyone that had a hard time finding a spot for the PCIII to fit....so I don't get what the size of it has to do with anything....I mean come on!
The other thing that had me cracking up is this: "if you want to tune your bike quickly and easily to perfection anywhere".....YEAH RIGHT. "perfection" ahhh haaa. Like I said, unless you dyno tune, I can almost guarantee a better tune using the PCIII. Even after a dyno tune, I would have money on the PCIII. The doebeck style TFI units are just too hard to ever get near "perfect".
I don't recommend the TFI units at all....doesnt matter what you are planning on doing with mods. They are inferior units, and not worth messing with. Joe Blow can get a PCIII and either have fuel moto map it for what he wants, or he can simply download a map for his configuration from dynojet. Its as simple as plugging in a USB cord and looking at whats on the screen. Its so easy its not even funny. Tuning is also easier, as you have a screen with all the numbers on it. You can see whats going on everywhere, and tune specific places. OR, it too has the three face plate buttons that you can make more vast changes with.
I think its a pretty easy choice...not much mystery in it to me! the only mystery is, why you are so hung up on this style of fuel controller and dont want to hear anything else. Were you not creating this thread to help people? I personally think you are doing people an injustice by recomending this unit only and talking it up as much as you are. Randy wasnt attacking your decision, just bringing experience and knowledge to the table which I hate to say, you obviosly dont have with the 700's FI system or the piggyback EFI units that are out there for it! Once you get a dyno tune, and you have a perfect a/f ratio across the board, it doesnt matter where you ride. The stock computer will compensate for it!

Oh, and with mods there should be NO ???'s on which is better. Like what was already said, you can max out a trinity type rather quick. I have heard of it happening with just the 734, cam and PP.