Who Cares Which Quad is the Fastest in a Drag or Top Speed?
Mar 14, 2001 | 04:11 PM
#12
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,484
Likes: 0
Easy there Gary...
I didn't say that all the riders were equal. The skill levels of many of them are similar, especially the top riders in a given class - and the machine can easily, more than make the difference.
Do you race? Have you ever raced XC? When you're neck and neck, fighting with one or two or more riders of similar skill at every turn, you want every advantage your machine can offer - in these instances machine choice and setup are CRITICAL.
No those quads aren't "exact" Honda replicas, but they are CLOSELY based on Honda's proven design, not Yamaha's, not Suzuki's, not Kawasaki's.... You get the picture. Even Bryan Baker's 426 with Banshee plastic is based on 250R geometry using Banshee narrow control arms...
Moreover, thousands of Honda framed quads win and place well in AA, A, Expert, etc classes all over the country every weekend. Can't say that for any other brand.
If the bike doesn't matter to these riders, why aren't more (any?) riding Banshee, Raptor, LT, Tecate based machines? Why does the aftermarket overwhelmingly offer 250R geometry chassis' even for other brand quads?
38hp is probably more than enough power for most all XC races, except for the most open ones. Power delivery is of greatest importance, not peak HP....
I didn't say that all the riders were equal. The skill levels of many of them are similar, especially the top riders in a given class - and the machine can easily, more than make the difference.
Do you race? Have you ever raced XC? When you're neck and neck, fighting with one or two or more riders of similar skill at every turn, you want every advantage your machine can offer - in these instances machine choice and setup are CRITICAL.
No those quads aren't "exact" Honda replicas, but they are CLOSELY based on Honda's proven design, not Yamaha's, not Suzuki's, not Kawasaki's.... You get the picture. Even Bryan Baker's 426 with Banshee plastic is based on 250R geometry using Banshee narrow control arms...
Moreover, thousands of Honda framed quads win and place well in AA, A, Expert, etc classes all over the country every weekend. Can't say that for any other brand.
If the bike doesn't matter to these riders, why aren't more (any?) riding Banshee, Raptor, LT, Tecate based machines? Why does the aftermarket overwhelmingly offer 250R geometry chassis' even for other brand quads?
38hp is probably more than enough power for most all XC races, except for the most open ones. Power delivery is of greatest importance, not peak HP....
Mar 14, 2001 | 05:25 PM
#13
Elite Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 6,996
Likes: 0
Gabe..Sure, the variable of the machine is there with a million other variables as well. All I was posting was the rider is more important than the machine. You agree?
No, I have never raced in a large, organized event. For years I did race many small local events with a reasonable turnout and ran competitive on bikes and atv's (actually a stock 250r that I owned). So sure, I understand what you mean about any edge possible.
All I was posting was that an excellent rider can win on most-any machine that is set up be be competitive...Kawasaki-Yamaha-etc.
The intention was not to starting a pissing match of what manufacturer has the most quads at the local or GNCC race.
No, I have never raced in a large, organized event. For years I did race many small local events with a reasonable turnout and ran competitive on bikes and atv's (actually a stock 250r that I owned). So sure, I understand what you mean about any edge possible.
All I was posting was that an excellent rider can win on most-any machine that is set up be be competitive...Kawasaki-Yamaha-etc.
The intention was not to starting a pissing match of what manufacturer has the most quads at the local or GNCC race.
Mar 14, 2001 | 05:44 PM
#14
Thread Starter
|
Range Rover
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Roostking, I was asking for an explanation to try to understand why this was such a big deal for so many people. And several people responded with their reasoning. Of course I only choose to read the threads that are interesting, and arguing without facts is not very interesting.
Bandit, I think I have heard of the NHRA, but don't they drag race cars and not ATV's? I like to go fast also, but to me riding fast is on the track or trail, not down the road in a straight line. I own a street bike for going fast in a straight line.
I guess I do understand the comments stating that people like to brag about racing in a straight line since it takes out the handling and ability factor for inexperienced riders. I guess I would rather brag about a quad that is faster over the terrain it was intended to ride on, but to each his own!
Bandit, I think I have heard of the NHRA, but don't they drag race cars and not ATV's? I like to go fast also, but to me riding fast is on the track or trail, not down the road in a straight line. I own a street bike for going fast in a straight line.
I guess I do understand the comments stating that people like to brag about racing in a straight line since it takes out the handling and ability factor for inexperienced riders. I guess I would rather brag about a quad that is faster over the terrain it was intended to ride on, but to each his own!
Mar 14, 2001 | 06:14 PM
#15
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,484
Likes: 0
That is a chicken vs egg argument. Which came first? Depends on your point of view.
If I am on an ATC 70 racing XC against someone on a Raptor then the machine is far more important than the rider.
Then again, if I am on a stock TRX400 vs someone on a stock 250R, then the rider is far more important than the machine.
Then there's the grey area between. In dirtbikes, many of them are so closely matched that sure, practically any winning rider can ride any given machine to victory. In quads, unfortunately there are much larger differences. That's why there has been Honda domination for so many years. That's the point myself and the original poster were attempting to get across. We should all be more concerned about improving upon the handling characteristics of our machines instead of arguing who's faster in the straight line. Leave that to friday night at the local strip, drag racing cars is much more fun anyways.
If I am on an ATC 70 racing XC against someone on a Raptor then the machine is far more important than the rider.
Then again, if I am on a stock TRX400 vs someone on a stock 250R, then the rider is far more important than the machine.
Then there's the grey area between. In dirtbikes, many of them are so closely matched that sure, practically any winning rider can ride any given machine to victory. In quads, unfortunately there are much larger differences. That's why there has been Honda domination for so many years. That's the point myself and the original poster were attempting to get across. We should all be more concerned about improving upon the handling characteristics of our machines instead of arguing who's faster in the straight line. Leave that to friday night at the local strip, drag racing cars is much more fun anyways.
Mar 15, 2001 | 11:12 AM
#16
Range Rover
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Blodge500rx
I have read many of your posts in the racing forum and they have been informative if not helpful. But this one?
You ask, "Who cares if the Banshee or Raptor beats the 400ex in a drag race." Answer: A Banshee or Raptor owner. If that is what they are buying a quad for then more power to them. It is theyr'e money.
You say, "The race track is the best indicator of true performance". The race track, in my opinion, is the worst place to measure true performance because what it takes to be good on the track is totally different from what is good in everyday riding. Example: Leisurely Trail riding all day a person would want their suspension soft so they would not feel like they have been beaten with a stick all day. We want our machines tall for extra clearance. Some of us don't want to go at break neck speeds thru the woods we just want to ride and have a good time. Most of us can't handle the speed of our quads except in a straight line. Quad racing is such a small segment of the indusrty they don't care what a quad does at the track. They would go broke trying to manufacture a racing quad to such a limited market.
And by the way, A "screaming" "uncompetitive" Banshee won the MX open class last year.
Finally, I think that 350x might do well against the 400ex but a modded Raptor might have something for you.
ATC250r
In the 250r pro class they do not ride the old Honda 250r frame. They all use aftermarket updated geometry. Not the "old" 250r, it would not be competitive against these "new" racing machines. They are simply different.
And by the way, The buzz in the pro scene says the "Aftermarket" 250r is on the way out. Seems they can't seem to handle the Walsh Racecraft 426.
At last count, around six or seven, three in the top five, of the top twenty pro 250r riders are going to the 426. Even one is going to try the Susuki drz400. Could not find one full time 250 pro racing team with the 400ex. Seems it is not fast enough.
Blue Raptor: TCS Shocks, LoneStar A-Arms +3, DuraBlue axle +5, Fastline Brake Lines, Big Gun Pipe, GYTR Silencer, No-airlid, DG Bumper, Renthal Bar, 42t rear, 12t front, front grooved car tires(19x6x10), Rear turf tamers(18x9.5x8), Reinforced wheels,
00 KX 125 ( A real race machine)
I have read many of your posts in the racing forum and they have been informative if not helpful. But this one?
You ask, "Who cares if the Banshee or Raptor beats the 400ex in a drag race." Answer: A Banshee or Raptor owner. If that is what they are buying a quad for then more power to them. It is theyr'e money.
You say, "The race track is the best indicator of true performance". The race track, in my opinion, is the worst place to measure true performance because what it takes to be good on the track is totally different from what is good in everyday riding. Example: Leisurely Trail riding all day a person would want their suspension soft so they would not feel like they have been beaten with a stick all day. We want our machines tall for extra clearance. Some of us don't want to go at break neck speeds thru the woods we just want to ride and have a good time. Most of us can't handle the speed of our quads except in a straight line. Quad racing is such a small segment of the indusrty they don't care what a quad does at the track. They would go broke trying to manufacture a racing quad to such a limited market.
And by the way, A "screaming" "uncompetitive" Banshee won the MX open class last year.
Finally, I think that 350x might do well against the 400ex but a modded Raptor might have something for you.
ATC250r
In the 250r pro class they do not ride the old Honda 250r frame. They all use aftermarket updated geometry. Not the "old" 250r, it would not be competitive against these "new" racing machines. They are simply different.
And by the way, The buzz in the pro scene says the "Aftermarket" 250r is on the way out. Seems they can't seem to handle the Walsh Racecraft 426.
At last count, around six or seven, three in the top five, of the top twenty pro 250r riders are going to the 426. Even one is going to try the Susuki drz400. Could not find one full time 250 pro racing team with the 400ex. Seems it is not fast enough.
Blue Raptor: TCS Shocks, LoneStar A-Arms +3, DuraBlue axle +5, Fastline Brake Lines, Big Gun Pipe, GYTR Silencer, No-airlid, DG Bumper, Renthal Bar, 42t rear, 12t front, front grooved car tires(19x6x10), Rear turf tamers(18x9.5x8), Reinforced wheels,
00 KX 125 ( A real race machine)
Mar 15, 2001 | 12:02 PM
#18
Trailblazer
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 29
Likes: 0
I find the "Top Speed" arguments to be rather amusing. It happens on the forums, at the races, and amongst my friends that ride. 3 of my buddies bought Raptors over the winter and were telling me how they were going to run circles around me on my pathetic little 400. Well, we went trail riding last Saturday and let me tell ya, I had to stop and wait on them to catch up just like I always have. I laughed my butt off and gave them lots of grief for all the ridicule that I had to put up with all winter. Now, I did drag race them a few times. From a dead engine start, I smoked them. From a standing start, engine running, I barely edged them out. From about a 5mph start, they smoked me. They were having problems keeping in the gas from standing starts due to the wheelie problem, LOL. It didn't mean much, but hey, it was fun. At the end of the day, I don't care what anybody rides, as long as they ride! That's what it's all about anyhow.
