Disappointed with Raptor after all the problems !
#16
05-02-2001 | 12:56 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,484
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Didn't realize I was "on your case", if so, I apologize. I believe you took my post a little too personally. I am usually pretty direct and to the point, don't spend much time sugar coating things, and have even been accused of being too "serious" at times. Don't expect all discussions to be in agreeance, that is not necessarily the definition of an argument though.
Like you, I have also been the "local mechanic" for friends, family, and others on 2 and 4 stroke bikes and ATVs and have been around all sorts of motorized toys most of my life growing up with parents owning a bodyshop and a close uncle as a machinist. I have been riding both since the mid 80's (2 strokes even longer).
The thing I don't understand about your logic, is that the 400EX should be having the same troubles as the Raptor by your account. I guarantee that many 400EX's are ridden and abused every bit as much as a typical Raptor - in fact, dare I say, far more 400EX's are typically ridden harder. Just attend any race and count the numbers of 400EX's vs Raptors at the event.
If you would like to see me clearing substantial amounts of air (not on the sand), look no further than the link in my sig. Browse thru some of the race track links. There are forum members here that were at the track the day I was doing the "big jump" on my webpage, that can attest that my 400 was essentially stock and that it suffered no damage. Heck, I even cased a 60'+ triple that day with no damage. All the pics on my website were taken back when my engine was stock, fwiw....
As to the 4 strokes in MX subject, the reason that you haven't seen them crop up until recently is that in the past it was much too easy to extract power from 2 strokes, and be lightweight doing it. 4 strokes where reserved for trail bikes where reliability and fuel economy is important and lightswitch power was not necessary or typically wanted.
Now, with the EPA and other agencies frowning on 2 strokes, the manufacturers have to look toward the future. 4 stroke development was essentially forced upon them. Now, 4 strokes are beginning to compete on the power to weight scale and you see purpose built 4 stroke machines being produced for MX. It has nothing to do with 4 strokes not being able to hold up to the rigors of MX until now, it's all about the power to weight ratio and costs involved in making a 4 stroke "competitive". 4 stroke engines are used in almost every other type of motorized racing that exists and have been for years.
As far as the 400EX being "underpowered", I'll have to disagree there as well. I've raced mine stock in the MHSC and done really well, the MHSC is a series averages over 100 riders per race and 8 classes, top GNCC pro's and A class riders have been known to ride individual events in this series. I've won the overall in a couple events in Arkansas' state series on a stock engine, before I modified it and have been doing exceptionally well since doing so. Heck, I've outrun 250R's and ran close with Raptors in the straights on a stock engine. I've found that as long as the 400's throttle is adjusted properly, it is very competitive in stock form. If it is not adjusted properly, it is a gutless pig, but what can you expect when you're only getting 3/4 throttle.
I do however agree with your points about abuse, on any bike. But some bikes will accept more abuse than others. I consider my machine abused - well maintained, but abused. I personally do not think a Raptor would have survived what my EX has been thru...
I also modified the first sentence of my original posting as to not be quite so, confrontational....
Like you, I have also been the "local mechanic" for friends, family, and others on 2 and 4 stroke bikes and ATVs and have been around all sorts of motorized toys most of my life growing up with parents owning a bodyshop and a close uncle as a machinist. I have been riding both since the mid 80's (2 strokes even longer).
The thing I don't understand about your logic, is that the 400EX should be having the same troubles as the Raptor by your account. I guarantee that many 400EX's are ridden and abused every bit as much as a typical Raptor - in fact, dare I say, far more 400EX's are typically ridden harder. Just attend any race and count the numbers of 400EX's vs Raptors at the event.
If you would like to see me clearing substantial amounts of air (not on the sand), look no further than the link in my sig. Browse thru some of the race track links. There are forum members here that were at the track the day I was doing the "big jump" on my webpage, that can attest that my 400 was essentially stock and that it suffered no damage. Heck, I even cased a 60'+ triple that day with no damage. All the pics on my website were taken back when my engine was stock, fwiw....
As to the 4 strokes in MX subject, the reason that you haven't seen them crop up until recently is that in the past it was much too easy to extract power from 2 strokes, and be lightweight doing it. 4 strokes where reserved for trail bikes where reliability and fuel economy is important and lightswitch power was not necessary or typically wanted.
Now, with the EPA and other agencies frowning on 2 strokes, the manufacturers have to look toward the future. 4 stroke development was essentially forced upon them. Now, 4 strokes are beginning to compete on the power to weight scale and you see purpose built 4 stroke machines being produced for MX. It has nothing to do with 4 strokes not being able to hold up to the rigors of MX until now, it's all about the power to weight ratio and costs involved in making a 4 stroke "competitive". 4 stroke engines are used in almost every other type of motorized racing that exists and have been for years.
As far as the 400EX being "underpowered", I'll have to disagree there as well. I've raced mine stock in the MHSC and done really well, the MHSC is a series averages over 100 riders per race and 8 classes, top GNCC pro's and A class riders have been known to ride individual events in this series. I've won the overall in a couple events in Arkansas' state series on a stock engine, before I modified it and have been doing exceptionally well since doing so. Heck, I've outrun 250R's and ran close with Raptors in the straights on a stock engine. I've found that as long as the 400's throttle is adjusted properly, it is very competitive in stock form. If it is not adjusted properly, it is a gutless pig, but what can you expect when you're only getting 3/4 throttle.
I do however agree with your points about abuse, on any bike. But some bikes will accept more abuse than others. I consider my machine abused - well maintained, but abused. I personally do not think a Raptor would have survived what my EX has been thru...
I also modified the first sentence of my original posting as to not be quite so, confrontational....
#17
05-02-2001 | 02:02 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
As some of you may know by now, I am the newbie... had my bike on month. But I did grow up w/ my parents as member of the 4-wheel drive club next door to our property, my dad racing MX bikes, and riding dirt bikes since I could walk.
Here is my OPINION on all these matters mentioned in this thread.
1. Put a 660cc motor on a 400EX and it will have allot more problems. Yamaha knows its bikes and other than the typical 1st year problems and people thinking the Raptor should be invincible, becuase of the hype it got, the quad is doing dang good. The only 2 reasons I don't have one is I didn't have the money, and I don't want that much power. I would get myself killed.
2. As far as not putting a reverse on the Raptor.. that would just suck. Most people who own Raptors do a decent amount of trail riding, hare scrambles, etc. and would be screwed w/o reverse... bikes w/o reverse live in MX and that's it... no SERIOUS trail riding can be done w/o reverse.
3. It seems like there should be a #3, but I forget what it was, so I will leave it at that.
Good-day!
Here is my OPINION on all these matters mentioned in this thread.
1. Put a 660cc motor on a 400EX and it will have allot more problems. Yamaha knows its bikes and other than the typical 1st year problems and people thinking the Raptor should be invincible, becuase of the hype it got, the quad is doing dang good. The only 2 reasons I don't have one is I didn't have the money, and I don't want that much power. I would get myself killed.
2. As far as not putting a reverse on the Raptor.. that would just suck. Most people who own Raptors do a decent amount of trail riding, hare scrambles, etc. and would be screwed w/o reverse... bikes w/o reverse live in MX and that's it... no SERIOUS trail riding can be done w/o reverse.
3. It seems like there should be a #3, but I forget what it was, so I will leave it at that.
Good-day!
#18
05-02-2001 | 02:43 PM
Trailblazer
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
I am kina in the same boat for "smytak" buying a DS650. I love Yamahas but the Raptor has got some issues. I live in Brainerd, MN, and out local dealer has had many returns on Raptors for a lot of the same issues mentioned in these posts. They may have done an excellent job on the business end of the quad(motor), but I think they need to put more emphasis on the wear and tear end of it. It seems to be a mechanical nightmare for "weak" points.
That's why I recommend the DS. They are bigger, more stable, and "feel" extremely durable. They aren't bad at all in tight trails, a small group of us recently went to a local ATV park, which features 190 miles of "expert" rated trails. We road all day and the guy with the DS had no problems at all except for turn-arounds where he basically made his own friggin' trail. He made us take turns riding it. It had a supertrapp type pipe on it and a new filter, some jetting, and next size up tire diameter. Nothin' to say but "white-knuckle*$#%@*" man! I would get one but I don't have 'nads quite big enough to handle that unit!
For the time being if you need power get the DS, and then switch back to the Raptor after Yamaha makes it more mechanically sound! That's my solution.
That's why I recommend the DS. They are bigger, more stable, and "feel" extremely durable. They aren't bad at all in tight trails, a small group of us recently went to a local ATV park, which features 190 miles of "expert" rated trails. We road all day and the guy with the DS had no problems at all except for turn-arounds where he basically made his own friggin' trail. He made us take turns riding it. It had a supertrapp type pipe on it and a new filter, some jetting, and next size up tire diameter. Nothin' to say but "white-knuckle*$#%@*" man! I would get one but I don't have 'nads quite big enough to handle that unit!
For the time being if you need power get the DS, and then switch back to the Raptor after Yamaha makes it more mechanically sound! That's my solution.
#19
05-02-2001 | 02:57 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,484
Likes: 0
1. Put a 660cc motor on a 400EX and it will have allot more problems. Yamaha knows its bikes and other than the typical 1st year problems and people thinking the Raptor should be invincible, becuase of the hype it got, the quad is doing dang good. The only 2 reasons I don't have one is I didn't have the money, and I don't want that much power. I would get myself killed.
Wrong....
Please state why you think this...
First of all, "first year problems" should not be a given. They aren't on Honda bikes, so why should they be on Yamaha's? (I underdstand there's always the exception that proves the rule, so don't find some obscure first year Honda that had trouble to shove into my face). The TRX250R had no first year issues, nor did the 400EX - in fact, without the BNG, the 2001 400EX is identical to the 1999 400EX.
I have a 400EX that outputs at least as much power as a Raptor and has experienced ZERO problems, even under race conditions. This is even on a transmission and drivetrain that wasn't developed to handle the power I'm putting out.
2. As far as not putting a reverse on the Raptor.. that would just suck. Most people who own Raptors do a decent amount of trail riding, hare scrambles, etc. and would be screwed w/o reverse... bikes w/o reverse live in MX and that's it... no SERIOUS trail riding can be done w/o reverse.
Wrong again...
While reverse might be a nice option in some cases, I have ridden almost exclusively trails in the tight, rugged, Ozark mountains of northwest Arkansas and Southwest Missouri for most of my riding career (over 20 years). I also race harescrambles (in which I am the points leader in the Pro class in my series). It takes longer to engage and disengage reverse than to pull in my clutch, put my feet down, and manually back up my bike in 99% of all cases where I need to back up. I'll take the weight/reliability savings.
Wrong....
Please state why you think this...
First of all, "first year problems" should not be a given. They aren't on Honda bikes, so why should they be on Yamaha's? (I underdstand there's always the exception that proves the rule, so don't find some obscure first year Honda that had trouble to shove into my face). The TRX250R had no first year issues, nor did the 400EX - in fact, without the BNG, the 2001 400EX is identical to the 1999 400EX.
I have a 400EX that outputs at least as much power as a Raptor and has experienced ZERO problems, even under race conditions. This is even on a transmission and drivetrain that wasn't developed to handle the power I'm putting out.
2. As far as not putting a reverse on the Raptor.. that would just suck. Most people who own Raptors do a decent amount of trail riding, hare scrambles, etc. and would be screwed w/o reverse... bikes w/o reverse live in MX and that's it... no SERIOUS trail riding can be done w/o reverse.
Wrong again...
While reverse might be a nice option in some cases, I have ridden almost exclusively trails in the tight, rugged, Ozark mountains of northwest Arkansas and Southwest Missouri for most of my riding career (over 20 years). I also race harescrambles (in which I am the points leader in the Pro class in my series). It takes longer to engage and disengage reverse than to pull in my clutch, put my feet down, and manually back up my bike in 99% of all cases where I need to back up. I'll take the weight/reliability savings.
#20
05-02-2001 | 03:16 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 239
Likes: 0
Well what was I thinking... I forgot that you were the one that knew it all, not me! Here's the point... stock 400EX DOES NOT have the power a Raptor does. Reverse is crucial in many areas, and most 4 stroke riders love the woods and have chosen Raptors cuase they have reverse... I also know a point leader in hare scrambles and all be darned if he doesn't ride a Raptor... and after one day of riding w/ me (who I admit am a beginner and own a Warrior) you would give your left foot for a reverse. Southern Indiana woods and especially mud where I ride REQUIRES IT if you want to spend as much time riding as you do pushing.