686 Raptor
#11
07-01-2002 | 03:33 AM
Trailblazer
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Well I finished the tear down ..It wasn't the head gasket..It was the dime sized hole in the top of the piston..Without being an expert I would say this is the problem...The hole itself looks like a defect in the piston because it's not a burnt hole (it's like a rust hole is the best way I can describe it)Unless something broke in the transmission and sent something up from underneath the piston to make a hole like it did ..I didn't tear it down any farther because I'm waiting on parts for my new 770 (crank,piston) from Powroll And I also have a Banshee project going on (putting it back together) I had the frame powder coated and I'm finishing building the motor ..So the Raptor is on the back burner for now.
See my other post
Raptor Blew Up
Sound reliable to you?
See my other post
Raptor Blew Up
Sound reliable to you?
#13
07-02-2002 | 04:31 PM
Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,878
Likes: 0
King, as a matter of fact! I will be by there the week of the 8th to drop off a CR480 jug and pick up a 440 kit (friends parts) so I will be sure not to do any snooping [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-cool.gif[/img]
I will also be out in AZ in the weeks afterward so I will drop you a line. How about Seuade for some drinks and .....be sure to get a hall pass from your wife. This is a business meeting of course [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
I will also be out in AZ in the weeks afterward so I will drop you a line. How about Seuade for some drinks and .....be sure to get a hall pass from your wife. This is a business meeting of course [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
#14
07-02-2002 | 07:25 PM
Extreme Pro Rider
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,858
Likes: 0
Well, I'm a BOMB owner, and will testify running agianst well tuned piped and jetted Raptors and against 686 Raptors.
I myself have a stong running DS(jetted,airfilter,Endcap). I can beat Most DS's and Raptors with similar mods. However, I have been the victim of many 686 Raptors in the last few months. Even if I pull the holeshot by 2 or 3 lengths, Within a 100yds the 686 will have caught me. Now, that is POWER. Compared to a stock Raptor OR piped&jetted, the 686 gives you the power to come from behind.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img]
I think Trinity has really seperated themselves from the other performance companys. They give you POWER,RELIABILITY,QUICK SERVICE,and GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE. all at a GREAT PRICE!!!!!!
I know their are alot of DS owners that hope that TRINITY can do the same for them. That in itself should give you an indication on how good the TRINITY 686 package is.
Biggerisbetter.
P.S. Don't get into all this 63,65hp bullcrap! There were alot of people VERY disapointed at their Dyno charts this past weekend at Aledo.
Example: My bike 44.8hp[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Raptor Trinity 686 43hp[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
But in reality, in 660ft the Raptor 686 put about 6 to 7 lenghts on me[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
I myself have a stong running DS(jetted,airfilter,Endcap). I can beat Most DS's and Raptors with similar mods. However, I have been the victim of many 686 Raptors in the last few months. Even if I pull the holeshot by 2 or 3 lengths, Within a 100yds the 686 will have caught me. Now, that is POWER. Compared to a stock Raptor OR piped&jetted, the 686 gives you the power to come from behind.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img]
I think Trinity has really seperated themselves from the other performance companys. They give you POWER,RELIABILITY,QUICK SERVICE,and GREAT CUSTOMER SERVICE. all at a GREAT PRICE!!!!!!
I know their are alot of DS owners that hope that TRINITY can do the same for them. That in itself should give you an indication on how good the TRINITY 686 package is.
Biggerisbetter.
P.S. Don't get into all this 63,65hp bullcrap! There were alot of people VERY disapointed at their Dyno charts this past weekend at Aledo.
Example: My bike 44.8hp[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Raptor Trinity 686 43hp[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-blush.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
But in reality, in 660ft the Raptor 686 put about 6 to 7 lenghts on me[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
#15
07-08-2002 | 09:56 PM
Range Rover
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Swytak,
Thanks for the 727 thoughts. After having read your previous posts, I was leaning towards the new rod anyway, no matter which motor I went with. Here are some questions for you and everyone else who is knowledgeable.
1) Swytak, does the Carrillo rod require a special bearing? I pulled these numbers from an old post ("Bikeworx High Performance work Quote!"
, and from that post it appears that updating the rod is quite the expensive proposition.
Carrillo HD Rod 220.00
Rod Bearing 110.00
Install Rod on Crank 195.00 (this is in addition to the $550 disassemble/reassemble fee).
These are the Bikeworx numbers. Are these the types of numbers Trinity gave you? I emailed them back and forth a few times and they were very responsive until I started asking about the rod and tranny upgrade costs. I figured I'd ask someone who's going through it now rather than pestering Trinity again. Plus some other people may be interested in reading this stuff.
2)Regarding the 32mm intake valves and FCR carbs:
a) Airraptor, I see that you recommend going with all three intakes and the FCRs, even on the Trinity 686. What type of improvement (and where in the powerband) will this setup bring over the single 32mm intake with stock carbs?
b) What about the 727 kit with one or more 32mm valves and but without the FCRs? What's the difference in performance there (again, in what range and what kind of difference)?
c) Raptor720, I remember reading a post from you a while back about the FCRs being a waste of money since the stock CVs can be modified to flow plenty of air. I'd like to know if this is still your opinion, since that post is now nine months old.
3) I'd like to upgrade to the '02 gears while everything is being done. I see from the Trinity website that the top end teardown and reassembly fee is $250 (but they quoted me a labor fee of $370 for the 686 kit - and that was in addition to the porting fee). I also see from the website that the fee for the 727 top and bottom end teardown/reassembly is only $450. Not much of a difference from the $370 fee. Anyway, does anyone know if Trinity will perform the '02 tranny upgrade and what the additional labor cost would be beyond the $450 top and bottom teardown/reassembly?
I'm starting to get into the details here so I can figure out how much everything is going to cost and what my tradeoffs are, so thanks in advance to anyone who can provide some help. It's already looking like a $2400 tab for the tranny upgrade, Hinson basket and pressure plate, Carillo rod and bearing, and 686 kit. The 727 kit with only a single 32mm intake valve and stock carbs brings that up to about $2700, and the 727 with FCR's and three intakes will break the $4000 mark. And that's if I do all of the teardown and assembly work myself.
Thanks for the 727 thoughts. After having read your previous posts, I was leaning towards the new rod anyway, no matter which motor I went with. Here are some questions for you and everyone else who is knowledgeable.
1) Swytak, does the Carrillo rod require a special bearing? I pulled these numbers from an old post ("Bikeworx High Performance work Quote!"
, and from that post it appears that updating the rod is quite the expensive proposition. Carrillo HD Rod 220.00
Rod Bearing 110.00
Install Rod on Crank 195.00 (this is in addition to the $550 disassemble/reassemble fee).
These are the Bikeworx numbers. Are these the types of numbers Trinity gave you? I emailed them back and forth a few times and they were very responsive until I started asking about the rod and tranny upgrade costs. I figured I'd ask someone who's going through it now rather than pestering Trinity again. Plus some other people may be interested in reading this stuff.
2)Regarding the 32mm intake valves and FCR carbs:
a) Airraptor, I see that you recommend going with all three intakes and the FCRs, even on the Trinity 686. What type of improvement (and where in the powerband) will this setup bring over the single 32mm intake with stock carbs?
b) What about the 727 kit with one or more 32mm valves and but without the FCRs? What's the difference in performance there (again, in what range and what kind of difference)?
c) Raptor720, I remember reading a post from you a while back about the FCRs being a waste of money since the stock CVs can be modified to flow plenty of air. I'd like to know if this is still your opinion, since that post is now nine months old.
3) I'd like to upgrade to the '02 gears while everything is being done. I see from the Trinity website that the top end teardown and reassembly fee is $250 (but they quoted me a labor fee of $370 for the 686 kit - and that was in addition to the porting fee). I also see from the website that the fee for the 727 top and bottom end teardown/reassembly is only $450. Not much of a difference from the $370 fee. Anyway, does anyone know if Trinity will perform the '02 tranny upgrade and what the additional labor cost would be beyond the $450 top and bottom teardown/reassembly?
I'm starting to get into the details here so I can figure out how much everything is going to cost and what my tradeoffs are, so thanks in advance to anyone who can provide some help. It's already looking like a $2400 tab for the tranny upgrade, Hinson basket and pressure plate, Carillo rod and bearing, and 686 kit. The 727 kit with only a single 32mm intake valve and stock carbs brings that up to about $2700, and the 727 with FCR's and three intakes will break the $4000 mark. And that's if I do all of the teardown and assembly work myself.
#16
07-09-2002 | 02:07 AM
Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,133
Likes: 0
WOW FourStrokeFan, your asking for ALOT of info. I have "some time" and will try and answer to the best of my ability.
Starting with prices from Trinity: I cannot give you any real numbers regarding parts or labor, as Harry is helping me with the build of my 727, due to the rod failure I experianced with my 686. I do know you will pay more to have a rod installed, but to use that labor cost to your advantage, you can go with the 727 since the cases have to be split and machined anyway. Regarding a special bearing for the Carrillo rod, I don't know. My rod failed so it had to be replaced. Again, to offset some of the labor cost, if you are going with the rod and 727 kit, not much more labor in installing a new trans, it's already pretty well apart.
a) "I" am unsure what you will be able expect from using the larger intakes and stock carbs. Trinity has alot of options for the "money is no problem" to the "I have this amount to work with".
To shed some light from my own build. I wanted a "bada$$ motor built", not too extreme but not your average Joe either. Therefore, I decided to go with all the intake valves and wanted a bigger cam. Harry then said, we have a great cam, but you need to go higher with the compression (12:1) to make the oversize valves, BIG cam and head work, work the best for you. This also made going with the FCR's a wise choice, it's going to want to breathe with the cam, valves, head work, etc., so the carbs would hinder the total package.
b) If your considering that route, "I" suggest you go with the 686. You can probably get the big valves, which would allow you to use a bigger cam and you can always get the carbs later when you want more power or have the extra money.
c) I believe (and I could be wrong) that this was before soem of the newer advances that Trinity and Raptor720 now have. I believe they have this motor flowing so well, that the carbs are what makes the kit come together. Atleast this would be true on some of the larger or heavily built motors (Big cam, big valves, higher comp pist), as I mentioned earlier in this post.
3) Again, use your labor costa to your advantage. I said it earlier too, if your going with the rod, the bottom end will apart, if you go with the 727, the bottom end will be apart, if your going with a new trans, the bottom end will be apart. They may charge 350 for just one of these items regarding labor, but they won't do that to you if your doing 2 or more. Yes, it will be more then 350, but not 1050.-. Trinity is fair!
Just looking back and from my knowledge speaking with Harry, I would say a 727 w/ big valves, cam, valve springs, Carrillo rod, high comp piston, head port, chamber work, tear down and install, would cost you right around 3200.-. This does not include the tranny or FCR's w/ intakes. You will need to do something with the clutch as well and don't forget a full exhaust system. Oh yea, they have that new CDI too, if you really want to do it right (hehe). I am going to wait on the CDI for now, but am already thinking about it!
OK, so, I hope I covered most of your questions, even though not all were aimed directly at me. I do believe I atleast shed some light on the subject and your concerns. Time for a beer, my fingers aren't used to all this typing!
AllJuice, Raptor720, Kingraptor and a list of others I'm sure, can provide quite abit more, if they have thier typing fingers warmed up that is.
Swy
Starting with prices from Trinity: I cannot give you any real numbers regarding parts or labor, as Harry is helping me with the build of my 727, due to the rod failure I experianced with my 686. I do know you will pay more to have a rod installed, but to use that labor cost to your advantage, you can go with the 727 since the cases have to be split and machined anyway. Regarding a special bearing for the Carrillo rod, I don't know. My rod failed so it had to be replaced. Again, to offset some of the labor cost, if you are going with the rod and 727 kit, not much more labor in installing a new trans, it's already pretty well apart.
a) "I" am unsure what you will be able expect from using the larger intakes and stock carbs. Trinity has alot of options for the "money is no problem" to the "I have this amount to work with".
To shed some light from my own build. I wanted a "bada$$ motor built", not too extreme but not your average Joe either. Therefore, I decided to go with all the intake valves and wanted a bigger cam. Harry then said, we have a great cam, but you need to go higher with the compression (12:1) to make the oversize valves, BIG cam and head work, work the best for you. This also made going with the FCR's a wise choice, it's going to want to breathe with the cam, valves, head work, etc., so the carbs would hinder the total package.
b) If your considering that route, "I" suggest you go with the 686. You can probably get the big valves, which would allow you to use a bigger cam and you can always get the carbs later when you want more power or have the extra money.
c) I believe (and I could be wrong) that this was before soem of the newer advances that Trinity and Raptor720 now have. I believe they have this motor flowing so well, that the carbs are what makes the kit come together. Atleast this would be true on some of the larger or heavily built motors (Big cam, big valves, higher comp pist), as I mentioned earlier in this post.
3) Again, use your labor costa to your advantage. I said it earlier too, if your going with the rod, the bottom end will apart, if you go with the 727, the bottom end will be apart, if your going with a new trans, the bottom end will be apart. They may charge 350 for just one of these items regarding labor, but they won't do that to you if your doing 2 or more. Yes, it will be more then 350, but not 1050.-. Trinity is fair!
Just looking back and from my knowledge speaking with Harry, I would say a 727 w/ big valves, cam, valve springs, Carrillo rod, high comp piston, head port, chamber work, tear down and install, would cost you right around 3200.-. This does not include the tranny or FCR's w/ intakes. You will need to do something with the clutch as well and don't forget a full exhaust system. Oh yea, they have that new CDI too, if you really want to do it right (hehe). I am going to wait on the CDI for now, but am already thinking about it!
OK, so, I hope I covered most of your questions, even though not all were aimed directly at me. I do believe I atleast shed some light on the subject and your concerns. Time for a beer, my fingers aren't used to all this typing!
AllJuice, Raptor720, Kingraptor and a list of others I'm sure, can provide quite abit more, if they have thier typing fingers warmed up that is.
Swy
#17
07-09-2002 | 02:47 AM
Pro Rider
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,666
Likes: 0
I think this up and coming 4-stroke wars are going to be super intense as far as competition is concerned! I think there will be alot more engine builders there being represented then Sparks and Trinity. I think it's going to be big eye opener for some. I'm looking foward to this event.
"Jay"
"Jay"
#18
07-09-2002 | 10:39 PM
Range Rover
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Swytak,
Thanks a lot for your response. I know it took some typing, but I definitely appreciate it. Hopefully Raptor720 and Airraptor will chime in at some point as well. And it certainly couldn't hurt for me to try Trinity again at some point.
I'm not in a huge rush to get this done since I'm still kind of recovering from an ATV-related injury from January, but I'm trying to gather my info now so I can get it done when my body and wallet are ready.
Thanks a lot for your response. I know it took some typing, but I definitely appreciate it. Hopefully Raptor720 and Airraptor will chime in at some point as well. And it certainly couldn't hurt for me to try Trinity again at some point.
I'm not in a huge rush to get this done since I'm still kind of recovering from an ATV-related injury from January, but I'm trying to gather my info now so I can get it done when my body and wallet are ready.
#19
07-10-2002 | 12:17 AM
Pro Rider
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,133
Likes: 0
FourStrokeFan,
One suggestion I would like to make, if I can? "If" your going to do it, now is the time, because now is when Trinity is a little slower. Turn around will be quicker and they can spend a bit more time helping you with your questions and concerns. So if you have the money and are serious, I would suggest you atleast start the ball moving in that direction. Just wanted to give you an idea of what you can expect.
Swy
One suggestion I would like to make, if I can? "If" your going to do it, now is the time, because now is when Trinity is a little slower. Turn around will be quicker and they can spend a bit more time helping you with your questions and concerns. So if you have the money and are serious, I would suggest you atleast start the ball moving in that direction. Just wanted to give you an idea of what you can expect.
Swy
#20
07-10-2002 | 01:10 PM
Range Rover
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
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