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No spark! Please help!

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Old Apr 26, 2012 | 11:21 PM
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Default No spark! Please help!

Hey guys, its been awhile since i've posted on here. Hoping to get some advice in tracking down my no spark issue.

I have a Kazuma Meerkat 50cc. Over the winter ran fine, except no electric start. I didn't have half the components for that, cdi, start solenoid, battery and etc.

We would just pop it into first and push it to get it started. Little bro was riding it the one day and ripped up the wiring harness. Its sat since then. Dug into it today, stripped it completely. I recently bought all new components battery, cdi, voltage regulator, switch assembly, wiring harness, starter soleniod to get the electric start working. Only thing i didnt get was a stator or magneto and ignition coil(didnt see the point.) Started just fine push starting so no need, right?

Hooked everything in wiring harness up killswitches, cdi, voltage regulator, magneto, solenoid, battery, ignition coil and the switch assembly of course.

With the killswitch engaged, starter motor does not turn (perfect so far). Killswitch off and start button depressed starter motor doesn't turn.

I've shorted the two post on the soleniod and the starter cranks fine, but otherwise nothing. Figured maybe the new harness is junk so i bypassed the solenoid and wired directly to start button. Strangely i've got the starter to crank, with no soleniod? Is that okay? The killswitch still works corectly i suppose. When the killswitch is on and i depress the start button, nothing (perfect). While killswitch is disabled and start button depressed, starter cranks (normal right)?

Okay so assuming what i've said above is okay we shall move on.. I've got the motor cranking with the electrical system. My problem now is that i've got no spark, not even the slightest bit. And that's where you come in, i'm stumped. Not sure what to check first or how to check it. Obviously with a multi meter or volt meter but what do i check?

Any help is greatly appreciated, as my little bro isn't very happy amd antsy to ride again.

Thanks!
 
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Old Apr 27, 2012 | 05:40 AM
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Lynn has got a lot of info out there on different posts that'll help you out.
forgive me for not knowing about your specific quad, but most of the little quads have safety interlocks that'll kill spark. such as, the brake switch must activate, the rear tether kill/remote kill must work(or unplug them). these interlocks have to be satisfied in order for spark to occur. mostly to even get the starter to crank. there's a couple of items to consider to get you started.
as far as you activating the starter by direct wiring, i'm not surprised. you solenoid kicks in and out because it's a relay.
 
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Old Apr 27, 2012 | 05:52 AM
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another item to check is the quick connects on your wiring harness. sometimes the wires move and become slightly detached inside the quick connect and it won't make contact with the other side of the mate quck connect. a simple tug and pull test would confirm that. seeing how china quads sometimes have smaller gauge wiring, check for kinks in the wire jackets.
 
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Old Apr 27, 2012 | 10:33 PM
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My comments in blue...

Originally Posted by Bennyboy000001
Hey guys, its been awhile since i've posted on here. Hoping to get some advice in tracking down my no spark issue.

I have a Kazuma Meerkat 50cc. Over the winter ran fine, except no electric start. I didn't have half the components for that, cdi, start solenoid, battery and etc. [A working CDI is *absolutely* required for starting and running a quad]

We would just pop it into first and push it to get it started. Little bro was riding it the one day and ripped up the wiring harness. Its sat since then. Dug into it today, stripped it completely. I recently bought all new components battery, cdi, voltage regulator, switch assembly, wiring harness, starter soleniod to get the electric start working. [Yikes... Not how I would go about this problem....] Only thing i didnt get was a stator or magneto and ignition coil(didnt see the point.) Started just fine push starting so no need, right? [I would agree with you on this *one* single point]

Hooked everything in wiring harness up killswitches, cdi, voltage regulator, magneto, solenoid, battery, ignition coil and the switch assembly of course.

With the killswitch engaged, starter motor does not turn (perfect so far). [What? Kill switches have *nothing* to do with whether the starter motor turns. Kill switches prevent spark. That's all. ] Killswitch off and start button depressed starter motor doesn't turn. [So you have a starter motor safety interlock problem. This involves the fuse, ignition switch, brake switch and starter button]

I've shorted the two post on the soleniod and the starter cranks fine, but otherwise nothing. Figured maybe the new harness is junk so i bypassed the solenoid and wired directly to start button. Strangely i've got the starter to crank, with no soleniod? Is that okay?

[Oh my God, NO!!!! What in the dickens do you think you are doing?

This is dangerous and dumb. First it tells me you don't have a working main fuse. All wiring other than the big fat starter motor wiring is fused (including the start button). A small quad like a 50cc should have a fuse no bigger than 7 amps. Yet your starter motor draws 35 amps. You'd have instantly blown the main fuse - if you had one. The fuse is there to prevent fire. You've got a gas tank sitting over the top of your wiring. You don't want a fire there...

You then say you wired the entire starter motor current path through that teeny little start button. It's a switch rated for 3 amps! All *35* amps are now going through this little teeny switch. If you haven't wrecked it already , at least you've damaged it. Do you really think the 'corner cutting', 'sub quality', 'cheap cost' chinese quad assembly plant would put in that solenoid if they through they could get away with just bypassing it? ]

The killswitch still works corectly i suppose. When the killswitch is on and i depress the start button, nothing (perfect). [Again, huh? This does not follow....] While killswitch is disabled and start button depressed, starter cranks (normal right)? [Again, kill switches have *nothing* to do with whether the starter turns or not.]

Okay so assuming what i've said above is okay we shall move on.. I've got the motor cranking with the electrical system. My problem now is that i've got no spark, not even the slightest bit. And that's where you come in, i'm stumped. Not sure what to check first or how to check it. Obviously with a multi meter or volt meter but what do i check?

Look at you CDI. How many pins on it? 4 or 5?




Any help is greatly appreciated, as my little bro isn't very happy amd antsy to ride again.

Thanks!
 
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Old Apr 29, 2012 | 08:26 PM
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Lynn,

I've hook everything up how it should be no direct wiring.

I've got no power. Battery is charged. When i press the starter button, nothing happens. I can short the post on the solenoid and it then works. I have checked every connection. All seems fine.

The CDI has 5 pins.

Thanks
 
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Old Apr 29, 2012 | 10:45 PM
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First off, I reread my last post. I posted it on Friday after a particularly bad day at work. My frustration apparently carried over to home. I was way too harsh in my response to you. I sincerely apologize for that . I should never ridicule inexperience, and I hope to start again with a more appropriate tact .

You have two separate problems. Your starter motor doesn't crank when you press the start button, and you have no spark (jumping across the solenoid). I would suggest that we tackle these problem separately. Let's concentrate on geting the starter to turn with the start button, or getting spark. Then we can switch and concentrate on the other problem. I'm guessing that "spark" is the top priority since you could then maybe get the quad to run by shorting across the solenoid. That way you could tool around on the quad for a while once it starts to get the wiggles out, then concentrate on the starter motor interlock stuff.

But there is a third thing that will need to be measured too (down the line). Once you quad is running (and starting) you need to check the battery charging system to make sure the battery is being kept charged, and slowly going dead while riding. It would be a shame to get things going only to have your new battery go dead and get ruined because it isn't being kept charged up.

So do you want to tackle the no spark problem first? You'll need to short across the solenoid to crank the starter to do these tests. If you'd rather attack the starter not cranking first then let me know and we'll change direction...

Here is the generic procedure for troubleshooting "no spark" on a 5 pin CDI:

Is this a picture of your CDI?


Assuming the answer is yes, the first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches and kill switch wiring:

Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark.

Method 2) Unplug the CDI. Turn on the ignition switch and set all kill switches to the run position. Use a meter to measure resistance in of the kill switch pin in the wiring harness connector to engine/frame ground. If the resistance is infinite on the 100K ohm scale then your kill switches/kill switch wiring are OK. If you measure zero ohms then you have a kill switch/wiring issue.

The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:

1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure?

2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?

3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure?

4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure?

Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:

A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure?

B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.

Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test.

What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.

Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on....
 
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Old Apr 30, 2012 | 01:17 PM
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I've got spark!!

It doesn't seem very strong though not sure if that is the right word for it.

I was trying to get those readings although i had spark but i ran into a problem. My meter doesn't measure in the 100k ohm scale.

[IMG]http://forums.atvconnection.com/Name:  IMAG0115.jpg
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I've posted this picture hoping that maybe you can help me choose a scale that'll work. I've went to radioshack to find a meter that would work but they don't have anything other than something similar to what i have now.

Thanks
 
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Old May 1, 2012 | 12:33 AM
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Good point. Most meters don't have a 100K ohm scale. So use a 200K scale. I'll change my generic procedure to match the more common 200K scale instead of the 100K.

So if you have spark does the quad start up? Have you got fuel and compression?

On your "no crank" problem, turn on the ignition switch and apply the brakes. Use your meter on the 20 volt DC scale to measure 12 volts as it goes down this path (use the negative battery terminal for the meter black lead for all these tests):

1) 12 volts at the battery
2) 12 volts at *both* sides of the main fuse
3) 12 volts at *two* wires gong to the ignition switch.
4) Look at your brake light (with brakes applied). Is your brake light on? If you can find one (or more of) your brake switch(es), measure the wires going to the switch(es). You should have 12 volts on both sides.

From here the path diverges depending on how Meerkats are wired. The 12 volts may go to the starter solenoid actuating wires directly (and the other side of the solenoid actuating wires gets grounded through the start button). Or the output of the brake switch goes through the start button and then on to the solenoid actuating wires when the start button is pushed. In this case the other side of the solenoid actuating wires will be grounded all the time.

See if you can follow the 12 volts through to the output side of the brake switch...
 
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Old May 1, 2012 | 02:42 AM
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The quad does not start unfortunately . I have fuel and compression.

The quad does not have any safety interlock mechanisms on it. It doesn't even have lights... Yet lol.

Very poor design i'm assuming. Now by ignition switch, do you mean the starter button?

Maybe a little information of what i have will help.

Battery
Wiring harness
Kill switch/start button/lights assembly
CDI
Solenoid
Voltage regulator
Ignition coil

Pretty much all of the obvious to get spark.

I have a couple of dangling connectors that i've not the slightest clue as to what they go to. I figured if they're not hooked up to anything that shouldn't cause any problems right?

I'm sorry if i'm missing the obvious.
 
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Old May 2, 2012 | 11:47 PM
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My comments in blue... Really busy lately. Sorry for the delay in responding...

Originally Posted by Bennyboy000001
The quad does not start unfortunately . I have fuel and compression.

The quad does not have any safety interlock mechanisms on it. It doesn't even have lights... Yet lol.

Very poor design i'm assuming. Now by ignition switch, do you mean the starter button? [No. You should have a key switch that turns the quad on and off. But I've never seen a meerkat up close. But I would bet they have an ignition switch, and headlight, and a brake switch, and a brake light. So are you telling me this quad *never* had an ignition switch, headlight, tail/brake light, etc ? If it was there before you need to have all of this present for stock wiring to work (well not the headlight, but everything else is required...).]

[The vast majority of chinese quads will not allow the starter to crank unless the brakes are applied (as measured by the brake switch). This is to guarantee the quad keeps still if it should start up in gear. It is the same principle that keeps you from starting up your car in drive. ]

Maybe a little information of what i have will help.

Battery
Wiring harness
Kill switch/start button/lights assembly
CDI
Solenoid
Voltage regulator
Ignition coil

Pretty much all of the obvious to get spark.

I have a couple of dangling connectors that i've not the slightest clue as to what they go to. I figured if they're not hooked up to anything that shouldn't cause any problems right? [Well the answer is no. If your ignition switch connector is dangling you get nothing. If your brake switch connector is dangling that's a 'no go' too...]

I'm sorry if i'm missing the obvious.
You could wire up the start button so that it cranks the starter motor when you press the starter button regardless of whether it is in gear, or if the brakes are applied, etc. This is easy to do. But do you want to do this? Think about it before replying....

Suppose you're having problems... You're cranking away at the starter but it's not starting. You're teed off and frustrated. The battery is starting to go dead... But suddenly the quad starts to fire a bit but it is barely hanging in there. You feather the throttle..., and suddenly the engine roars to life. You let her rip - but the quad is in gear and the brakes aren't on. The auto clutch engages and the quad completely unexpectedly leaps forward into.... (you can finish the story from here).

Another way of looking at this: Would you be comfortable driving a car that would allow you to start up the engine in drive?
 
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