STILL no spark......HELP
Sep 12, 2012 | 08:01 PM
#1
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Weekend Warrior
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STILL no spark......HELP
Greetings to all. Thank you in advance for your time and wisdom. I have a110 Chinese Atv that will not spark. I don't know what brand it is, it has a Lifan engine and says Rider all over it. Basically I have followed Lynns directions on trouble shooting a5 pin cdi and found a bad stator. So I replaced it. Then still no spark and now the start button does not work. The new stator works beautifully including trigger pulse. I an not getting anything out of the cdi now to coil. I replaced the cdi again and still nothing. I discovered today that I can also crank the starter by putting a screw driver across the selinoid with the key off. Would this have anything to do with no cdI out put posts now malfunctioning start button? I have also tried bypass the actual start button and the selenoid still will not turn. Please help. I have replaces so far the cdi 3times, spark plug, coil and stator.
Sep 13, 2012 | 11:40 PM
#2
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So the new stator works beautifully, but what were the measurements you got? I can't tell you how many times I get the comment "it all measured good" when in fact it wasn't good at all. Your comment isn't far off that. Could I have the values you used to make the "good" diagnosis please? If you can I'd like the values you measured from before and after you changed the stator...
Does the five pin CDI look exactly like the CDI picture in the procedure you used to do the diagnosis?
What changed between when the start button worked, and when it didn't? Did this happen simultaneously with changing the stator?
When you turn on the ignition switch and apply the brakes, does the brake light light up?
Does the five pin CDI look exactly like the CDI picture in the procedure you used to do the diagnosis?
What changed between when the start button worked, and when it didn't? Did this happen simultaneously with changing the stator?
When you turn on the ignition switch and apply the brakes, does the brake light light up?
Sep 14, 2012 | 07:08 PM
#3
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Weekend Warrior
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Hello Lynn, Thank you for helping me. 
Your previous posts have been great in helping me trouble shoot. OK.... I will do my best to remember the last readings but here are the current ones from today.
The ohms on the kill switch are infinite and there is no spark with the wire removed.
The ohms on the AC ignition pin to engine ground is 347 ohms
the resistance on the trigger pin to ground is 120 ohms ( and also measures a .02v[MA scale] trigger pulse while cranking)
the ignition pin to ground pin while cranking measures 32.7v
on the output side
ignition coil pin to ground pin measures .2 - .3 ohms
ignition coil pin to ground pin while cranking and CDI plugged in measures 74-77 v.
Also I measured the coil end of the ignition goil wire and got 0.0v there while cranking. I checked the whole wire and found nothing wrong or suspicious.
The brake light does not come on while the hand brakes are applied but the tail light does when the head lights are on. ( Wire testing, there is no actual light )
the switch problem seems to be worsening as the head lights will not come on now. The switch problem did not instantly happen with the stator change out. I was takeing readings and the start button went out. Now the headlights are not working. This is over a 4 day period.
The readings from the old stator as I remember.
Kill switch wire readings are the same as above
They were no volts on the AC ignition power pin when cranking
There were no ohms nor volts ( MA) on the trigger pin.
Your previous posts have been great in helping me trouble shoot. OK.... I will do my best to remember the last readings but here are the current ones from today. The ohms on the kill switch are infinite and there is no spark with the wire removed.
The ohms on the AC ignition pin to engine ground is 347 ohms
the resistance on the trigger pin to ground is 120 ohms ( and also measures a .02v[MA scale] trigger pulse while cranking)
the ignition pin to ground pin while cranking measures 32.7v
on the output side
ignition coil pin to ground pin measures .2 - .3 ohms
ignition coil pin to ground pin while cranking and CDI plugged in measures 74-77 v.
Also I measured the coil end of the ignition goil wire and got 0.0v there while cranking. I checked the whole wire and found nothing wrong or suspicious.
The brake light does not come on while the hand brakes are applied but the tail light does when the head lights are on. ( Wire testing, there is no actual light )
the switch problem seems to be worsening as the head lights will not come on now. The switch problem did not instantly happen with the stator change out. I was takeing readings and the start button went out. Now the headlights are not working. This is over a 4 day period.
The readings from the old stator as I remember.
Kill switch wire readings are the same as above
They were no volts on the AC ignition power pin when cranking
There were no ohms nor volts ( MA) on the trigger pin.
Sep 15, 2012 | 01:16 AM
#4
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From: Tracy, California, USA
My coments in blue...
Hello Lynn, Thank you for helping me. Your previous posts have been great in helping me trouble shoot. OK.... I will do my best to remember the last readings but here are the current ones from today.
The ohms on the kill switch are infinite and there is no spark with the wire removed. [Good]
The ohms on the AC ignition pin to engine ground is 347 ohms [Good]
the resistance on the trigger pin to ground is 120 ohms ( and also measures a .02v[MA scale] trigger pulse while cranking) [The 120 ohms is OK, but the 0.02v is wrong. That is too low for voltage. On top of that you claim to using the mA scale which measures current. That is incorrect. So redo this test using the lowest *voltage* scale (not current which is measured in amps (A) and mA (milliamps))]
the ignition pin to ground pin while cranking measures 32.7v [This is low, but acceptable - especially if the starter is cranking a little slow.]
on the output side
ignition coil pin to ground pin measures .2 - .3 ohms [OK]
ignition coil pin to ground pin while cranking and CDI plugged in measures 74-77 v. [This reading makes no sense, especially since the very next reading below measures the same wire at the other end, under the same conditions and now gets zero volts. This is all very wrong. It does not indicate that there is a problem with the quad, instead it indicates there is a problem with the measurements. This cannot be. Also note that the AC voltage at the ignition coil output is twice the AC power input of approximately 32 volts. All of this makes no sense too. Please redo these tests.]
Also I measured the coil end of the ignition goil wire and got 0.0v there while cranking. I checked the whole wire and found nothing wrong or suspicious. [See the above comment. The is just the other end of the same wire that you measured 74 volts under the same conditions. This is not possible...
]
The brake light does not come on while the hand brakes are applied but the tail light does when the head lights are on. ( Wire testing, there is no actual light ) [Most quads use a starter interlock circuit that prevents the starter form turning unless the brakes are applied. Yet your brake light does not come on. Has your wiring been hacked at all? When you started the quad before (assuming you've seen it working), did you have to apply the brakes to crank the starter motor?]
the switch problem seems to be worsening as the head lights will not come on now. The switch problem did not instantly happen with the stator change out. I was takeing readings and the start button went out. Now the headlights are not working. This is over a 4 day period. [Using engine ground as a reference (black meter lead), follow the circuitry:
1) Battery positive terminal = 12 volts
2) Fuse input and output wires = 12 volts
3) Ignition switch:
a) One wire = 12 volts all the time
b) one wire = 12 volts only when the ignition switch is on.
4) Brake switch:
a) one wire = 12 volts whenever ignition switch is on
b) one wire = 12 volts whenever ignition switch is on *and* brakes are applied]
The readings from the old stator as I remember.
Kill switch wire readings are the same as above [OK]
They were no volts on the AC ignition power pin when cranking [Bad Stator]
There were no ohms nor volts ( MA) on the trigger pin. [Bad stator, but that would indicate two simultaneous faults when coupled with the last comment above. That would be extremely unlikely unless there was supporting evidence like the flywheel and stator collided and ground each other up. The trigger coil is outside the flywheel. The AC ignition power winding is inside. They're completely independant from each other. How could both fail simultaneously? Hmmm. Are you sure you measured that right?
And you again quoted your units in mA, which is a measue of current, not voltage. Voltage and current are as different as night and day. You were supposed to be measuring voltage....]
The ohms on the kill switch are infinite and there is no spark with the wire removed. [Good]
The ohms on the AC ignition pin to engine ground is 347 ohms [Good]
the resistance on the trigger pin to ground is 120 ohms ( and also measures a .02v[MA scale] trigger pulse while cranking) [The 120 ohms is OK, but the 0.02v is wrong. That is too low for voltage. On top of that you claim to using the mA scale which measures current. That is incorrect. So redo this test using the lowest *voltage* scale (not current which is measured in amps (A) and mA (milliamps))]
the ignition pin to ground pin while cranking measures 32.7v [This is low, but acceptable - especially if the starter is cranking a little slow.]
on the output side
ignition coil pin to ground pin measures .2 - .3 ohms [OK]
ignition coil pin to ground pin while cranking and CDI plugged in measures 74-77 v. [This reading makes no sense, especially since the very next reading below measures the same wire at the other end, under the same conditions and now gets zero volts. This is all very wrong. It does not indicate that there is a problem with the quad, instead it indicates there is a problem with the measurements. This cannot be. Also note that the AC voltage at the ignition coil output is twice the AC power input of approximately 32 volts. All of this makes no sense too. Please redo these tests.]
Also I measured the coil end of the ignition goil wire and got 0.0v there while cranking. I checked the whole wire and found nothing wrong or suspicious. [See the above comment. The is just the other end of the same wire that you measured 74 volts under the same conditions. This is not possible...
]The brake light does not come on while the hand brakes are applied but the tail light does when the head lights are on. ( Wire testing, there is no actual light ) [Most quads use a starter interlock circuit that prevents the starter form turning unless the brakes are applied. Yet your brake light does not come on. Has your wiring been hacked at all? When you started the quad before (assuming you've seen it working), did you have to apply the brakes to crank the starter motor?]
the switch problem seems to be worsening as the head lights will not come on now. The switch problem did not instantly happen with the stator change out. I was takeing readings and the start button went out. Now the headlights are not working. This is over a 4 day period. [Using engine ground as a reference (black meter lead), follow the circuitry:
1) Battery positive terminal = 12 volts
2) Fuse input and output wires = 12 volts
3) Ignition switch:
a) One wire = 12 volts all the time
b) one wire = 12 volts only when the ignition switch is on.
4) Brake switch:
a) one wire = 12 volts whenever ignition switch is on
b) one wire = 12 volts whenever ignition switch is on *and* brakes are applied]
The readings from the old stator as I remember.
Kill switch wire readings are the same as above [OK]
They were no volts on the AC ignition power pin when cranking [Bad Stator]
There were no ohms nor volts ( MA) on the trigger pin. [Bad stator, but that would indicate two simultaneous faults when coupled with the last comment above. That would be extremely unlikely unless there was supporting evidence like the flywheel and stator collided and ground each other up. The trigger coil is outside the flywheel. The AC ignition power winding is inside. They're completely independant from each other. How could both fail simultaneously? Hmmm. Are you sure you measured that right?
And you again quoted your units in mA, which is a measue of current, not voltage. Voltage and current are as different as night and day. You were supposed to be measuring voltage....]
Sep 18, 2012 | 07:36 PM
#5
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Weekend Warrior
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OK. I re measured the volts on the ac ignition pin and got 36V ( I charged the battery). I re measured the volts on the coil pin and got .004. I also re measured the volts ( this time 
) on the trigger pin and .97. I looked at both brake switches and both were physically broken. Will that stop the voltage from going to the coil? To answer the questions from above, I have never seen the quad run. It was given to me by a friend who got frusterated. It should run ( mechanically ) but there are electrical issues. No one it appears has been in the electrical but me because I am taking what appears to be the factory wrapping off the wireing. Thanks again for your help. I am continuing to test each wire as you gave directions to do in the above post. One question on trouble shooting the switches. Does the one wire 12 v constant and one 12 after switch is pressed or engaged, hold true to the start button and the controls in that handlebar cluster as well?
Thank You Lynn
) on the trigger pin and .97. I looked at both brake switches and both were physically broken. Will that stop the voltage from going to the coil? To answer the questions from above, I have never seen the quad run. It was given to me by a friend who got frusterated. It should run ( mechanically ) but there are electrical issues. No one it appears has been in the electrical but me because I am taking what appears to be the factory wrapping off the wireing. Thanks again for your help. I am continuing to test each wire as you gave directions to do in the above post. One question on trouble shooting the switches. Does the one wire 12 v constant and one 12 after switch is pressed or engaged, hold true to the start button and the controls in that handlebar cluster as well?Thank You Lynn
Sep 20, 2012 | 12:21 AM
#6
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From: Tracy, California, USA
My comments in blue:
OK. I re measured the volts on the ac ignition pin and got 36V ( I charged the battery). I re measured the volts on the coil pin and got .004. [OK, but did you figure out why you measured so differently before? It's really impotant that the results you get are consistant. What you measure today should measure the same in an hour, or the next day, or 2 weeks form now. If you're not getting 100% consistant results then we need to find out why. Bad data lead to misdiagnosis, followed by frustration, and failure...] I also re measured the volts ( this time ) on the trigger pin and .97. [No. This is wrong. Could you retest this again making sure your doing this measurement correctly, and you get consistent results please? Also, could you redo the resistance tests on this pin? Are you still getting 120 ohms? Consistency and repeatability are key. Having repeatability give credence to your measurements, lack of repeatability raises red flags...] I looked at both brake switches and both were physically broken. Will that stop the voltage from going to the coil? [No. The safety interlock involving the brake switch could possibly keep the starter motor from turning when you push the start button, but it has nothing to do with spark when the start is turning.] To answer the questions from above, I have never seen the quad run. It was given to me by a friend who got frusterated. It should run ( mechanically ) but there are electrical issues. No one it appears has been in the electrical but me because I am taking what appears to be the factory wrapping off the wireing. Thanks again for your help. I am continuing to test each wire as you gave directions to do in the above post. One question on trouble shooting the switches. Does the one wire 12 v constant and one 12 after switch is pressed or engaged, hold true to the start button and the controls in that handlebar cluster as well? [Usually yes, but sometimes a start button wire can be 12 volts when disengaged (not pushed), and go to ground when engaged. It depends on how it is wired...]
Thank You Lynn
) on the trigger pin and .97. [No. This is wrong. Could you retest this again making sure your doing this measurement correctly, and you get consistent results please? Also, could you redo the resistance tests on this pin? Are you still getting 120 ohms? Consistency and repeatability are key. Having repeatability give credence to your measurements, lack of repeatability raises red flags...] I looked at both brake switches and both were physically broken. Will that stop the voltage from going to the coil? [No. The safety interlock involving the brake switch could possibly keep the starter motor from turning when you push the start button, but it has nothing to do with spark when the start is turning.] To answer the questions from above, I have never seen the quad run. It was given to me by a friend who got frusterated. It should run ( mechanically ) but there are electrical issues. No one it appears has been in the electrical but me because I am taking what appears to be the factory wrapping off the wireing. Thanks again for your help. I am continuing to test each wire as you gave directions to do in the above post. One question on trouble shooting the switches. Does the one wire 12 v constant and one 12 after switch is pressed or engaged, hold true to the start button and the controls in that handlebar cluster as well? [Usually yes, but sometimes a start button wire can be 12 volts when disengaged (not pushed), and go to ground when engaged. It depends on how it is wired...]Thank You Lynn
