Spark Issue, Need Help!
#1
09-22-2012, 09:23 PM
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Spark Issue, Need Help!
Ok, so i have had many of these chinese ATV's for about the last 7 years. I have been able to diagnose and fix them thus far. However i have one now that i think i know what the problem is, just verifying.
I have a 110 Kazuma that is fine, and another 110 Peace that stopped firing last year.
I have swapped parts, etc and here is where i am now.
Kazuma = GOOD PARTS
Peace = WONT FIRE
Took CDI, Ignition coil, Spark plug, Starter Solenoid & Regulator off the Peace and put it on the Kazuma, it starts and runs fine. I put all the parts from the Kazuma on the Peace, still wont fire.
This essentially eliminates all of these. Multimeter on the Kazuma shows 18-22 volts when starting on the black/green wire (hot wire to ignition coil) and it shows like 0.1-0.3 on the Peace.
The only thing i have left is the Magneto, i am not sure if it is worth testing or just changing or even has anything to do with starting. Before i did i wanted to make sure i wasn't missing anything else. The fuse at the battery is fine on both and the starter solenoid is new.
The magneto is a 4 wire + seperate ground. If you think it is worth checking, some instructions on what to check wire wise on the magneto/cdi would be appreciated. Thanks!
I have a 110 Kazuma that is fine, and another 110 Peace that stopped firing last year.
I have swapped parts, etc and here is where i am now.
Kazuma = GOOD PARTS
Peace = WONT FIRE
Took CDI, Ignition coil, Spark plug, Starter Solenoid & Regulator off the Peace and put it on the Kazuma, it starts and runs fine. I put all the parts from the Kazuma on the Peace, still wont fire.
This essentially eliminates all of these. Multimeter on the Kazuma shows 18-22 volts when starting on the black/green wire (hot wire to ignition coil) and it shows like 0.1-0.3 on the Peace.
The only thing i have left is the Magneto, i am not sure if it is worth testing or just changing or even has anything to do with starting. Before i did i wanted to make sure i wasn't missing anything else. The fuse at the battery is fine on both and the starter solenoid is new.
The magneto is a 4 wire + seperate ground. If you think it is worth checking, some instructions on what to check wire wise on the magneto/cdi would be appreciated. Thanks!
#2
09-23-2012, 10:42 PM
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How many pins on your CDI? 4? or 5?
Do either of them look like these:
The procedure for troubleshooting ignition problems differ substantially between these two common generic CDI's (the first is DC powered with no kill switch input, and the second is AC powered off the stator with a kill switch input).
You mentioned that the magneto (the term stator is more correct) is the only thing left. No, all your wiring is suspect too, as is the kill switch circuitry if your CDI has 5 pins.
Do either of them look like these:
The procedure for troubleshooting ignition problems differ substantially between these two common generic CDI's (the first is DC powered with no kill switch input, and the second is AC powered off the stator with a kill switch input).
You mentioned that the magneto (the term stator is more correct) is the only thing left. No, all your wiring is suspect too, as is the kill switch circuitry if your CDI has 5 pins.
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09-23-2012, 11:29 PM
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09-23-2012, 11:32 PM
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#5
09-24-2012, 12:13 AM
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Here is the generic procedure for trouble shooting a 5 pin CDI ignition system:
Is this a picture of your CDI?
Assuming the answer is yes, the first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches and kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark.
Method 2) Unplug the CDI. Turn on the ignition switch and set all kill switches to the run position. Use a meter to measure resistance in of the kill switch pin in the wiring harness connector to engine/frame ground. If the reistance is infinite on the 100K ohm scale then your kill switches/kill switch wiring are OK. If you measure zero ohms then you have a kill switch/wiring issue.
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure?
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure?
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure?
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure?
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test.
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on....
Assuming the answer is yes, the first thing to do is eliminate all kill switches and kill switch wiring:
Method 1) Unplug the CDI and remove the kill switch pin in the CDI connector on the wiring harness. The pin is held in with a spring tab on the pin itself. You'll have to probe into the connector and push this tab in order to extract the pin. Plug the CDI back in (kill switch wire dangling) and see if you have spark.
Method 2) Unplug the CDI. Turn on the ignition switch and set all kill switches to the run position. Use a meter to measure resistance in of the kill switch pin in the wiring harness connector to engine/frame ground. If the reistance is infinite on the 100K ohm scale then your kill switches/kill switch wiring are OK. If you measure zero ohms then you have a kill switch/wiring issue.
The other inputs your CDI needs to make spark are AC Ignition Power, and the Trigger signal. Do the following:
1) Unplug the CDI. In the wiring connector measure the resistance of the AC Ignition Power pin to the Ground pin. You should see 400 ohms or so. What do you measure?
2) Measure the resistance of the Timing/trigger pin to the ground pin. You should measure 150 ohms or so. What do you measure?
3) Leave the CDI unplugged. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 100 volt scale. Measure the voltage on the AC Ignition Power pin to the ground pin while cranking the engine. You should see 40 to 80 volts AC while the engine is cranking. What do you measure?
4) Set your meter to measure AC volts on the lowest scale you have. Ideally this would be 2 volts but many meters don't go down this low. In that case use the lowest scale you have. Measure the voltage on the Timing Trigger pin to the Ground pin while cranking the engine. You should 0.2 t0 0.4 volts AC. What do you measure?
Now for measuring the output side of the CDI:
A) Leave the CDI unplugged. In the CDI wiring connector measure the resistance of the Ignition Coil pin to the ground pin. You should measure less than 1 ohm (but not zero ohms). What do you measure?
B) Plug the CDI back in. Set your meter to measure AC volts on the 20 volt scale. Set all kill switches to the run position. Crank the engine while measuring the voltage on the Igntition Coil pin to ground. Poke through the insulation of the wire if you can't probe the connector.
Caution: There should be moderately high voltage spikes on this wire. Make sure your fingers are not part of the circuitry. Don't touch the probe lead tips while doing this test.
What you should see is a lot of random numbers with lots of zero values as well. This is because the meter may catch all or part of the spark event voltage, with a lot of nothing in between. Describe what you see.
Note: Using a meter to measure this point produces highly variable results depending on the meter. What you really need is an oscilloscope, but most always a meter is all that is available. We have to do the best we can with what's available. Describe the meter results as accurately as you can - there is information there to chew on....
#6
09-24-2012, 12:21 AM
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....I have swapped parts, etc and here is where i am now.
Kazuma = GOOD PARTS
Peace = WONT FIRE
Took CDI, Ignition coil, Spark plug, Starter Solenoid & Regulator off the Peace and put it on the Kazuma, it starts and runs fine. I put all the parts from the Kazuma on the Peace, still wont fire.
This essentially eliminates all of these. Multimeter on the Kazuma shows 18-22 volts when starting on the black/green wire (hot wire to ignition coil) and it shows like 0.1-0.3 on the Peace......
Kazuma = GOOD PARTS
Peace = WONT FIRE
Took CDI, Ignition coil, Spark plug, Starter Solenoid & Regulator off the Peace and put it on the Kazuma, it starts and runs fine. I put all the parts from the Kazuma on the Peace, still wont fire.
This essentially eliminates all of these. Multimeter on the Kazuma shows 18-22 volts when starting on the black/green wire (hot wire to ignition coil) and it shows like 0.1-0.3 on the Peace......
The difference between the workng and non working coil voltage measurements suggest that the bad quad isn't triggering the CDI, and/or the kill spark switch circuitry is in "kill" mode, and/or your non working quad isn't getting any AC power. The above posted procedure should ferret these questions out.
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09-24-2012, 05:24 PM
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#8
09-24-2012, 05:30 PM
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Stupid thing didn't let me finish, sorry!
First off, the meter i am using is a FLUKE 70 III
Remove kill wire and try to start = FAIL
Unplug CDI
- Kill to ground = 01.00 OHM
- AC ignition to ground = 00.5 OHM
- Timing trigger to ground = 00.7 OHM
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 0.23 VAC
- Timing trigger to ground while cranking = 0.02 VAC
- Ignition to ground = 136.7 OHM (scale on the bottom was at 10)
Plugged in CDI
- Ignition coil to ground while cranking = 0.02 VDC
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 0.08 VDC
This might not sound right, all i am doing is logging what is on the screen of the meter. I put the black contact on the negative of the battery and red to do all the testing of the individual wires.
Feel free to correct anything i have done wrong, i am not an electrician.
First off, the meter i am using is a FLUKE 70 III
Remove kill wire and try to start = FAIL
Unplug CDI
- Kill to ground = 01.00 OHM
- AC ignition to ground = 00.5 OHM
- Timing trigger to ground = 00.7 OHM
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 0.23 VAC
- Timing trigger to ground while cranking = 0.02 VAC
- Ignition to ground = 136.7 OHM (scale on the bottom was at 10)
Plugged in CDI
- Ignition coil to ground while cranking = 0.02 VDC
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 0.08 VDC
This might not sound right, all i am doing is logging what is on the screen of the meter. I put the black contact on the negative of the battery and red to do all the testing of the individual wires.
Feel free to correct anything i have done wrong, i am not an electrician.
#9
09-24-2012, 06:21 PM
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So i retested the working kazuma to ensure i was doing it right and the numbers all where in range of yours, which also made me realize i was testing the wrong wires on the peace (looking at the plug backwards)
NEW NUMBERS
Remove kill wire and try to start = FAIL
Unplug CDI
- Kill to ground = 01.00 OHM
- AC ignition to ground = 543 OHM
- Timing trigger to ground = 136.3 OHM
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 57.2 VAC
- Timing trigger to ground while cranking = 0.188 VAC
- Ignition to ground = 1.1 OHM
Plugged in CDI
- Ignition coil to ground while cranking = 0.02 VAC
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 0.08 VAC
With the CDI unplugged, everything checked fine, when plugged in it still did not check out correctly on the ignition coil wire. Held steady at 0.02 VAC
NEW NUMBERS
Remove kill wire and try to start = FAIL
Unplug CDI
- Kill to ground = 01.00 OHM
- AC ignition to ground = 543 OHM
- Timing trigger to ground = 136.3 OHM
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 57.2 VAC
- Timing trigger to ground while cranking = 0.188 VAC
- Ignition to ground = 1.1 OHM
Plugged in CDI
- Ignition coil to ground while cranking = 0.02 VAC
- AC ignition to ground while cranking = 0.08 VAC
With the CDI unplugged, everything checked fine, when plugged in it still did not check out correctly on the ignition coil wire. Held steady at 0.02 VAC
Last edited by austinbest; 09-24-2012 at 06:24 PM. Reason: Wrong information 3x
#10
09-24-2012, 06:40 PM
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On a side note, all of the numbers where pretty consistent with the working ATV.
Kill to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 1.0
Peace (Broken) - 1.0
AC ignition to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 357 Ohm
Peace (Broken) - 543 Ohm
Timing trigger to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 126.1 OHM
Peace (Broken) - 136.3 OHM
AC ignition to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 46.7 VAC
Peace (Broken) - 57.2 VAC
Timing trigger to ground
Kazuma (Working) - .218 VAC
Peace (Broken) - .188 VAC
Ignition to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 1.0 OHM
Peace (Broken) - 1.1 OHM
Ignition to ground (CDI plugged in)
Kazuma (Working) - Sparatic
Peace (Broken) - 0.02
Kill to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 1.0
Peace (Broken) - 1.0
AC ignition to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 357 Ohm
Peace (Broken) - 543 Ohm
Timing trigger to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 126.1 OHM
Peace (Broken) - 136.3 OHM
AC ignition to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 46.7 VAC
Peace (Broken) - 57.2 VAC
Timing trigger to ground
Kazuma (Working) - .218 VAC
Peace (Broken) - .188 VAC
Ignition to ground
Kazuma (Working) - 1.0 OHM
Peace (Broken) - 1.1 OHM
Ignition to ground (CDI plugged in)
Kazuma (Working) - Sparatic
Peace (Broken) - 0.02