Kids quad project - No spark
Jan 15, 2013 | 09:18 PM
#1
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Kids quad project - No spark
My son brought a mini quad home, looks older, labeled Bob Cat, however that is no help. I think it is a 50cc but not sure. Someone has been at work on it, (God help me!!) It is a 2 stroke with a 4 wire cdi. Three wires from the cdi are in a 3 wire connector. The wires are black, black/red & grey/red. The 4th wire is tan or a light orange & goes into a single connector.
The stator has 4 coils. A red/black & a red/white wire are from one coil. (No ground.) The next 2 coils are seriesed with a white wire from one side grounded on the other side. (Black wire). The 4th coil is a white wire, the other side is grounded. (Black wire.) So, these are the 4 wires out of the stator. The red/white wire, the tan wire, the white wire & the black wire are in a 4 pin connector. The red/black wire is in a single pin connector. There are 4 magnets in the fly wheel. None of the 4 coils ring open. And with the motor spinning by battery drill, between the white & black I get 34-38 volts AC. From the tan to the black, which is the 2 coils seriesed, I get 2.5 volts AC.
The ignition coil has 1 tan wire single pin connector & is grounded by the mounting bolts. On the 200 ohm scale, I ring 23-25 ohms from the tan wire to ground. On the 20K scale, I ring 6.73 ohms from the spark plug wire to the tan wire. I ring no ground on the spark plug wire.
On the 200 ohm scale the cdi black wire to the red/white wire is 8 ohms. The black wire to the red/black reads 1.2 ohms. The red/grey wire to the red/black wire reads 63 ohms. From the tan wire I ring open to the other 3 wires. The tan wire is a single pin connector with a single female connector. This seems to match the tan wire from the coil which has a male connector.
The starter & battery have been removed & replaced with a hand starter. Also, there were no lights on the quad. Can anyone help me wire this up? And does it sound like I have a bad cdi or other problem?
GOD is good all the time. Viet Nam vet Grampy
The stator has 4 coils. A red/black & a red/white wire are from one coil. (No ground.) The next 2 coils are seriesed with a white wire from one side grounded on the other side. (Black wire). The 4th coil is a white wire, the other side is grounded. (Black wire.) So, these are the 4 wires out of the stator. The red/white wire, the tan wire, the white wire & the black wire are in a 4 pin connector. The red/black wire is in a single pin connector. There are 4 magnets in the fly wheel. None of the 4 coils ring open. And with the motor spinning by battery drill, between the white & black I get 34-38 volts AC. From the tan to the black, which is the 2 coils seriesed, I get 2.5 volts AC.
The ignition coil has 1 tan wire single pin connector & is grounded by the mounting bolts. On the 200 ohm scale, I ring 23-25 ohms from the tan wire to ground. On the 20K scale, I ring 6.73 ohms from the spark plug wire to the tan wire. I ring no ground on the spark plug wire.
On the 200 ohm scale the cdi black wire to the red/white wire is 8 ohms. The black wire to the red/black reads 1.2 ohms. The red/grey wire to the red/black wire reads 63 ohms. From the tan wire I ring open to the other 3 wires. The tan wire is a single pin connector with a single female connector. This seems to match the tan wire from the coil which has a male connector.
The starter & battery have been removed & replaced with a hand starter. Also, there were no lights on the quad. Can anyone help me wire this up? And does it sound like I have a bad cdi or other problem?
GOD is good all the time. Viet Nam vet Grampy
Jan 17, 2013 | 01:18 AM
#4
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I looked at your original post yesterday, and spent some time searching the internet for any info I could get on this quad. I got nowhere 
.
I remember another post a while back about this same type quad. It didn't go anywhere either - in fact we never even got to the point about it being a 2 stroke engine.
I looked at your wire colors, voltages and resistances. They're non-standard and non-generic, so I'm not sure how much help I can be. There is also some major descrepancies in you wire colors where you describe this set of colors from the stator in one sentence, then use another color set later for the same wires. We could work through this to solve the descrepancies (and I'm willing if you are up to it), but I worry that we will still end up at a dead end without having a viable parts source. The fact that the wiring has been messed with makes this doubly difficult.
Have you found anyplace that sells real midwest bobcat quad parts? I sure didn't in my searches. Of course I'm suspicious of any place that sells "compatible parts" without embedded pictures to compare to your existing parts...
.I remember another post a while back about this same type quad. It didn't go anywhere either - in fact we never even got to the point about it being a 2 stroke engine.
I looked at your wire colors, voltages and resistances. They're non-standard and non-generic, so I'm not sure how much help I can be. There is also some major descrepancies in you wire colors where you describe this set of colors from the stator in one sentence, then use another color set later for the same wires. We could work through this to solve the descrepancies (and I'm willing if you are up to it), but I worry that we will still end up at a dead end without having a viable parts source. The fact that the wiring has been messed with makes this doubly difficult.
Have you found anyplace that sells real midwest bobcat quad parts? I sure didn't in my searches. Of course I'm suspicious of any place that sells "compatible parts" without embedded pictures to compare to your existing parts...
Jan 17, 2013 | 07:52 PM
#5
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Mr. Edwards,
You were correct. The wires from the cdi are black, black/red, red/grey & tan(orange). I made a mistake calling the grey/red white/red. The white/red comes out of the stator.
I have pictures that I would like to send to you but I do not how to post them. Can you help?
I found a 4 wire cdi on ebay that looks the same only different connectors. It has a black & a tan in one connector & a white/red & a black/red in another connector. These 4 colors seem to match. It looks like the same shape & size.
GOD is good all the time.
Thanks again, Grampy
You were correct. The wires from the cdi are black, black/red, red/grey & tan(orange). I made a mistake calling the grey/red white/red. The white/red comes out of the stator.
I have pictures that I would like to send to you but I do not how to post them. Can you help?
I found a 4 wire cdi on ebay that looks the same only different connectors. It has a black & a tan in one connector & a white/red & a black/red in another connector. These 4 colors seem to match. It looks like the same shape & size.
GOD is good all the time.
Thanks again, Grampy
Jan 17, 2013 | 11:02 PM
#6
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From: Tracy, California, USA
Grampy,
You cannot post pictures until you have posted about 20 times (I don't know the actual number). It is an anti spam safeguard.
You can post pictures in your personal album on this site, then post in the forum a note to say to go look at them.
Or you can host your pic's at any number of free picture hosting sites (I use www.photobucket.com), then copy and paste the *.img links they give you into your post. You see the *.img link while you're composing the post but we (and you) will see the actual picture instead once it is posted.
Do you have a link to the ebay CDI you referred to?
You cannot post pictures until you have posted about 20 times (I don't know the actual number). It is an anti spam safeguard.
You can post pictures in your personal album on this site, then post in the forum a note to say to go look at them.
Or you can host your pic's at any number of free picture hosting sites (I use www.photobucket.com), then copy and paste the *.img links they give you into your post. You see the *.img link while you're composing the post but we (and you) will see the actual picture instead once it is posted.
Do you have a link to the ebay CDI you referred to?
Jan 19, 2013 | 12:20 PM
#7
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Weekend Warrior
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ATV electrical parts photos
I hope that this works. I'm not familiar with doing these things. If it's not, I will try again.
Here is the link to photobucket:
Midwest Bobcat no spark Photos by grampydavid | Photobucket
And this is to name of the post to eBay:
NEW CDI MINI ATV SCOOTER ETON JOG 50cc
GOD is good all the time!
grampy
Here is the link to photobucket:
Midwest Bobcat no spark Photos by grampydavid | Photobucket
And this is to name of the post to eBay:
NEW CDI MINI ATV SCOOTER ETON JOG 50cc
GOD is good all the time!
grampy
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Jan 21, 2013 | 11:47 PM
#8
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My comments embedded in blue:
Mr. Edwards,
You were correct. The wires from the cdi are black, black/red, red/grey & tan(orange). I made a mistake calling the grey/red white/red. The white/red comes out of the stator. [Now I'm even more confused. The "corrected" CDI wire colors in this post are exactly the same as in your first post except that now one wire is red/gray instead of gray/red. Nowhere do a I see a white/red wire. I see a red/white wire at the stator though in the previous post. Nowhere in the the previous post was there a mention of a white/red wire.
Plus you say there are four wires at the stator, your description describes 6 wires (including two black and two white wires - which I think is a mistake), and your pictures (from the link further down in this thread) shows 5 wires. And a tan wire gets mixed into the stator wires too right out of the blue.
Try as I might, I cannot not make heads nor tails of your wiring description so far.
But I see a much more fundamental problem here after looking at your pictures. Try to reason along with me and see if this makes sense:
I'm trying to figure out how your quad is wired. It's non-standard, and there are no similar quad diagrams to call on. So I'm left to trying to piece together your wiring by using wire colors in the wiring harness. I know that the stator, ignition coil, and CDI are intimately connected - albeit in an unknown fashion at this point. I also know that when a red/blk wire enters the taped up wire harness it does pop out of the wiring harness somewhere else, and it will still be a red/blk wire. It is not going to change color midsteam inside the taped up harness. Furthermore, I'm going to assume that all red/blk wires in the wiring harness are connected (which from experience is a fairly good assumption). This fact can easily be verified with a simple continuity check if in doubt... With this information the wiring details start to emerge.
Now what I see from your pictures is that all of the colors provided are for the short pigtail wires from the stator, and the pigtail wires from the CDI. None of these are relevant at all. They could be any color and not help me at all. I need the wire harness colors on the wire harness side of any connectors. This is the only way I can trace out your wiring. And from the wiring we can form a test plan.
But I also have to emphasize that the wiring harness colors that you repost must be 100% accurate. The pigtail wire info so far has been riddled with inconsistancies. You need to take extra care to make sure this wire harness info you provide is perfect. Wrong information is worse than no information...
]
I have pictures that I would like to send to you but I do not how to post them. Can you help?
I found a 4 wire cdi on ebay that looks the same only different connectors. It has a black & a tan in one connector & a white/red & a black/red in another connector. These 4 colors seem to match. It looks like the same shape & size. [You say the "4 colors seem to match", but they don't. Wht/red versus gray/red... But again, these are pigtail wire colors which are meaningless. I'm just trying to emphasize the importance of accurate reporting
.]
GOD is good all the time.
Thanks again, Grampy
You were correct. The wires from the cdi are black, black/red, red/grey & tan(orange). I made a mistake calling the grey/red white/red. The white/red comes out of the stator. [Now I'm even more confused. The "corrected" CDI wire colors in this post are exactly the same as in your first post except that now one wire is red/gray instead of gray/red. Nowhere do a I see a white/red wire. I see a red/white wire at the stator though in the previous post. Nowhere in the the previous post was there a mention of a white/red wire.
Plus you say there are four wires at the stator, your description describes 6 wires (including two black and two white wires - which I think is a mistake), and your pictures (from the link further down in this thread) shows 5 wires. And a tan wire gets mixed into the stator wires too right out of the blue.
Try as I might, I cannot not make heads nor tails of your wiring description so far.
But I see a much more fundamental problem here after looking at your pictures. Try to reason along with me and see if this makes sense:
I'm trying to figure out how your quad is wired. It's non-standard, and there are no similar quad diagrams to call on. So I'm left to trying to piece together your wiring by using wire colors in the wiring harness. I know that the stator, ignition coil, and CDI are intimately connected - albeit in an unknown fashion at this point. I also know that when a red/blk wire enters the taped up wire harness it does pop out of the wiring harness somewhere else, and it will still be a red/blk wire. It is not going to change color midsteam inside the taped up harness. Furthermore, I'm going to assume that all red/blk wires in the wiring harness are connected (which from experience is a fairly good assumption). This fact can easily be verified with a simple continuity check if in doubt... With this information the wiring details start to emerge.
Now what I see from your pictures is that all of the colors provided are for the short pigtail wires from the stator, and the pigtail wires from the CDI. None of these are relevant at all. They could be any color and not help me at all. I need the wire harness colors on the wire harness side of any connectors. This is the only way I can trace out your wiring. And from the wiring we can form a test plan.
But I also have to emphasize that the wiring harness colors that you repost must be 100% accurate. The pigtail wire info so far has been riddled with inconsistancies. You need to take extra care to make sure this wire harness info you provide is perfect. Wrong information is worse than no information...
] I have pictures that I would like to send to you but I do not how to post them. Can you help?
I found a 4 wire cdi on ebay that looks the same only different connectors. It has a black & a tan in one connector & a white/red & a black/red in another connector. These 4 colors seem to match. It looks like the same shape & size. [You say the "4 colors seem to match", but they don't. Wht/red versus gray/red... But again, these are pigtail wire colors which are meaningless. I'm just trying to emphasize the importance of accurate reporting
.] GOD is good all the time.
Thanks again, Grampy
Jan 22, 2013 | 01:58 PM
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Weekend Warrior
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Lynn,
Sorry for the mix-ups. The wiring is as follows:
From the stator, a white wire with a red tracer goes to a white/red in the harness. At the other end of the harness, this white/red connects to the grey/red on the CDI.
The black wire from the stator goes straight to ground and to the black wire in the harness which comes out in various places to grounds. It also goes to the black wire in the CDI.
The white wire from the stator goes to the 4 pin connector at the harness and stops there.
The red wire with a black tracer from the stator goes into the harness as red/black. At the other end of the harness the red/black goes to the red/black on the CDI & the red/black on the ignition switch.
The tan wire from the stator goes to a solid white wire in the harness. It comes out of the harness with a female connector & was not hooked up. (Must have been a voltage regulator or something like that.)
The tether kill switch has a red with a black tracer wire & a black wire. They tie into the same color wires in the harness.)
The ignition switch has a red (hot from fuse). It also has a black which goes to a brown in the harness. I believe this brown goes to the start switch.
The ignition also has a black wire with a white tracer that connects to the red wire with a black tracer in the harness.
Being that there are no lights on the quad & no starter & that it has a hand starter, I am not worried about anything but the spark & the kill switch. I just need to get spark. I can wire the rest after that.
I hope that I can just connect the CDI that I gave you the photo link to the same color stator wires minus the red/black. It must be the kill wire. I hope this clears things up. Please forgive me. I've been an electrician all of my life & think too far ahead of myself as I try to explain stuff. I sure appreciate you kind consideration & help.
GOD is good all the time. Viet Nam vet. grampy
Sorry for the mix-ups. The wiring is as follows:
From the stator, a white wire with a red tracer goes to a white/red in the harness. At the other end of the harness, this white/red connects to the grey/red on the CDI.
The black wire from the stator goes straight to ground and to the black wire in the harness which comes out in various places to grounds. It also goes to the black wire in the CDI.
The white wire from the stator goes to the 4 pin connector at the harness and stops there.
The red wire with a black tracer from the stator goes into the harness as red/black. At the other end of the harness the red/black goes to the red/black on the CDI & the red/black on the ignition switch.
The tan wire from the stator goes to a solid white wire in the harness. It comes out of the harness with a female connector & was not hooked up. (Must have been a voltage regulator or something like that.)
The tether kill switch has a red with a black tracer wire & a black wire. They tie into the same color wires in the harness.)
The ignition switch has a red (hot from fuse). It also has a black which goes to a brown in the harness. I believe this brown goes to the start switch.
The ignition also has a black wire with a white tracer that connects to the red wire with a black tracer in the harness.
Being that there are no lights on the quad & no starter & that it has a hand starter, I am not worried about anything but the spark & the kill switch. I just need to get spark. I can wire the rest after that.
I hope that I can just connect the CDI that I gave you the photo link to the same color stator wires minus the red/black. It must be the kill wire. I hope this clears things up. Please forgive me. I've been an electrician all of my life & think too far ahead of myself as I try to explain stuff. I sure appreciate you kind consideration & help.
GOD is good all the time. Viet Nam vet. grampy
Jan 23, 2013 | 12:08 AM
#10
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Ok. I've sketched this out and this time things are looking a lot more consistent .
I'd like you to do some measurements. Turn on the ignition switch, make sure the tether kill switch is in the run condition (tether plug firmly installed), and (if you have one) make sure the left handlebar kill switch is in the run position. Unplug the CDI, and measure resistances looking between the following pins in the wiring harness at the CDI connector:
1) What is the resistance between the white/red wire and the black wire? Use the 2K ohm scale (2000 ohms).
2) What is the resistance of the red/black wire and the black wire? Use the same 2K ohms (same as 2000 ohms) scale.
3) What is the resistance of the tan (or orange) wire and the black wire? Use the 200 ohm scale for this measurement.
4) What is the resistance from the spark plug connection on the ignition coil to the black wire on the CDI wiring harness connector? Use the 20K ohm scale (20,000 ohms). If it reads zero then reduce the scale in steps until you read something other than zero with good resolution.
On a four pin CDI there are four required signals for the CDI to function:
A) Power (beit AC or DC).
B) Ground
C) A timing trigger pulse
D) The output to the ignition coil
I don't see any trigger pickup coil anywhere in your photos. Usually this is a small assembly that sits outside the flywheel and senses a raised bump flying by in close proximity. Something has to precisely sense the engine rotation position to tell the CDI when it is time to fire the spark plug. Do you see anything like that that is not in the photos? Are there additional wires going into your engine near the camshaft? Sometimes (albeit rarely) the pickup coil is on the camshaft.
Is your wiring looking sort of stock, with some ancillary stuff removed, or is this wirng harness totally hacked? What I'm wondering is if someone in the past decided that some critical items weren't needed and chucked them.
I suspect that your red/black wire is AC power from the stator, and that the kill switch stuff works by shorting this line to ground. This is a ligitimate way to kill spark since the AC output would be current limited by design.
Orange (tan) wire is the output wire to the coil.
The white/red wire by process of elimination shold be a trigger pickup wire yet it goes to the stator where I can't see any evidence of there being a pickup coil in your stator. So once again we are looking for a trigger pickup coil....
I'm asking these tough questions because I'm on a data gathering quest to try to figure out how your quad ignition system is put together.
.I'd like you to do some measurements. Turn on the ignition switch, make sure the tether kill switch is in the run condition (tether plug firmly installed), and (if you have one) make sure the left handlebar kill switch is in the run position. Unplug the CDI, and measure resistances looking between the following pins in the wiring harness at the CDI connector:
1) What is the resistance between the white/red wire and the black wire? Use the 2K ohm scale (2000 ohms).
2) What is the resistance of the red/black wire and the black wire? Use the same 2K ohms (same as 2000 ohms) scale.
3) What is the resistance of the tan (or orange) wire and the black wire? Use the 200 ohm scale for this measurement.
4) What is the resistance from the spark plug connection on the ignition coil to the black wire on the CDI wiring harness connector? Use the 20K ohm scale (20,000 ohms). If it reads zero then reduce the scale in steps until you read something other than zero with good resolution.
On a four pin CDI there are four required signals for the CDI to function:
A) Power (beit AC or DC).
B) Ground
C) A timing trigger pulse
D) The output to the ignition coil
I don't see any trigger pickup coil anywhere in your photos. Usually this is a small assembly that sits outside the flywheel and senses a raised bump flying by in close proximity. Something has to precisely sense the engine rotation position to tell the CDI when it is time to fire the spark plug. Do you see anything like that that is not in the photos? Are there additional wires going into your engine near the camshaft? Sometimes (albeit rarely) the pickup coil is on the camshaft.
Is your wiring looking sort of stock, with some ancillary stuff removed, or is this wirng harness totally hacked? What I'm wondering is if someone in the past decided that some critical items weren't needed and chucked them.
I suspect that your red/black wire is AC power from the stator, and that the kill switch stuff works by shorting this line to ground. This is a ligitimate way to kill spark since the AC output would be current limited by design.
Orange (tan) wire is the output wire to the coil.
The white/red wire by process of elimination shold be a trigger pickup wire yet it goes to the stator where I can't see any evidence of there being a pickup coil in your stator. So once again we are looking for a trigger pickup coil....
I'm asking these tough questions because I'm on a data gathering quest to try to figure out how your quad ignition system is put together.
