too soon for synthetic? + tires
#11
12-07-2005, 01:13 AM
too soon for synthetic? + tires
Part of the problem is the temperature. If you aired the tires up inside in a heated garage or shop and when you take it out in the cold the tire pressure drops, letting the tire come off the rim. Air the tires to 5psi after the machine has been in the cold long enough to stablize the temp in the tire. The slime will also prevent some of this.
#12
12-07-2005, 03:06 AM
too soon for synthetic? + tires
"I edited out all that I agree with and will cover each paragraph that I have problems with."
"First, If you are older than me, then you are older than dirt."
That means you don't agree that I'm older...hmmm. Yeah, I'm older than dirt, and according to my teenage son, am getting dumber every day. But not so dumb when he desires some money from Dad, even though he rejects the way of life that got the money he is asking for. That should sound somewhat familiar to some Dad's out there. The nature of those not yet paying their own utility bills.
"Second, You can't have it both ways."
Yeah, you can. All lubricants have to have some friction inhibitors. Doesn't mean they are less or more slippery when doing their job acting as a buffer between metals. Additive packages are complex, and are also closely guarded. Suffice to say that one additive must be countered by another. If you have a good base stock - which synthetic is - a minimal (by comparsion) additive package is necessary. Depending upon the brand and where the oil came from, the additive package can amount to a significant portion of the total volume in the can.
As for jet engines - well, been around those too - 24 years - retired Navy flyer. Jet engine oil is normally changed by contamination, not time (or miles - heh, heh) and under goes spectra at routine intervals - but you know that. Synthetic was - I think - developed at a result of the jet engine requirement for an oil able to withstand the internal high temps w/out breaking down.
"They are called blended synthetics and they are a mix of dino and synthetic oils (they are cheaper than pure synthetic because of the dino oil in them)."
Blended synthetics have turned out to been a marketing success. Some time ago a major brand (again I'm not going to say which one it is, it's still on the market) was calling itself a synthetic when it was not. Now perhaps that oil is blended but they choose not to say so. As I said, I don't know the rules, but no where on the label does that product say "blended." It just may have to meet some SAE obtuse rule, but again that's speculation.
AmsOil is another true synthetic. It and Mobil 1 are the only two I know for sure to be true synthetics. Not saying others aren't, I just know those are.
"First, If you are older than me, then you are older than dirt."
That means you don't agree that I'm older...hmmm. Yeah, I'm older than dirt, and according to my teenage son, am getting dumber every day. But not so dumb when he desires some money from Dad, even though he rejects the way of life that got the money he is asking for. That should sound somewhat familiar to some Dad's out there. The nature of those not yet paying their own utility bills.
"Second, You can't have it both ways."
Yeah, you can. All lubricants have to have some friction inhibitors. Doesn't mean they are less or more slippery when doing their job acting as a buffer between metals. Additive packages are complex, and are also closely guarded. Suffice to say that one additive must be countered by another. If you have a good base stock - which synthetic is - a minimal (by comparsion) additive package is necessary. Depending upon the brand and where the oil came from, the additive package can amount to a significant portion of the total volume in the can.
As for jet engines - well, been around those too - 24 years - retired Navy flyer. Jet engine oil is normally changed by contamination, not time (or miles - heh, heh) and under goes spectra at routine intervals - but you know that. Synthetic was - I think - developed at a result of the jet engine requirement for an oil able to withstand the internal high temps w/out breaking down.
"They are called blended synthetics and they are a mix of dino and synthetic oils (they are cheaper than pure synthetic because of the dino oil in them)."
Blended synthetics have turned out to been a marketing success. Some time ago a major brand (again I'm not going to say which one it is, it's still on the market) was calling itself a synthetic when it was not. Now perhaps that oil is blended but they choose not to say so. As I said, I don't know the rules, but no where on the label does that product say "blended." It just may have to meet some SAE obtuse rule, but again that's speculation.
AmsOil is another true synthetic. It and Mobil 1 are the only two I know for sure to be true synthetics. Not saying others aren't, I just know those are.
#13
12-07-2005, 03:45 AM
too soon for synthetic? + tires
Originally posted by: JimJa
"I edited out all that I agree with and will cover each paragraph that I have problems with."
"First, If you are older than me, then you are older than dirt."
That means you don't agree that I'm older...hmmm. Yeah, I'm older than dirt, and according to my teenage son, am getting dumber every day. But not so dumb when he desires some money from Dad, even though he rejects the way of life that got the money he is asking for. That should sound somewhat familiar to some Dad's out there. The nature of those not yet paying their own utility bills.
I just said older than dirt, like maybe either I am too or maybe I am dirt. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
"Second, You can't have it both ways."
Yeah, you can. All lubricants have to have some friction inhibitors. Doesn't mean they are less or more slippery when doing their job acting as a buffer between metals. Additive packages are complex, and are also closely guarded. Suffice to say that one additive must be countered by another. If you have a good base stock - which synthetic is - a minimal (by comparsion) additive package is necessary. Depending upon the brand and where the oil came from, the additive package can amount to a significant portion of the total volume in the can.
I still don't think that proves whether it is slicker or not
As for jet engines - well, been around those too - 24 years - retired Navy flyer. Jet engine oil is normally changed by contamination, not time (or miles - heh, heh) and under goes spectra at routine intervals - but you know that. Synthetic was - I think - developed at a result of the jet engine requirement for an oil able to withstand the internal high temps w/out breaking down.
I completely agree.
"They are called blended synthetics and they are a mix of dino and synthetic oils (they are cheaper than pure synthetic because of the dino oil in them)."
Blended synthetics have turned out to been a marketing success. Some time ago a major brand (again I'm not going to say which one it is, it's still on the market) was calling itself a synthetic when it was not. Now perhaps that oil is blended but they choose not to say so. As I said, I don't know the rules, but no where on the label does that product say "blended." It just may have to meet some SAE obtuse rule, but again that's speculation.
I would guess it was a success because of the price and that the oil did not cause failures. A lot of the synthetic oils used in 2 strokes are blended and unless you read the label carefully you will never know.
AmsOil is another true synthetic. It and Mobil 1 are the only two I know for sure to be true synthetics. Not saying others aren't, I just know those are.
"I edited out all that I agree with and will cover each paragraph that I have problems with."
"First, If you are older than me, then you are older than dirt."
That means you don't agree that I'm older...hmmm. Yeah, I'm older than dirt, and according to my teenage son, am getting dumber every day. But not so dumb when he desires some money from Dad, even though he rejects the way of life that got the money he is asking for. That should sound somewhat familiar to some Dad's out there. The nature of those not yet paying their own utility bills.
I just said older than dirt, like maybe either I am too or maybe I am dirt. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-shocked.gif[/img]
"Second, You can't have it both ways."
Yeah, you can. All lubricants have to have some friction inhibitors. Doesn't mean they are less or more slippery when doing their job acting as a buffer between metals. Additive packages are complex, and are also closely guarded. Suffice to say that one additive must be countered by another. If you have a good base stock - which synthetic is - a minimal (by comparsion) additive package is necessary. Depending upon the brand and where the oil came from, the additive package can amount to a significant portion of the total volume in the can.
I still don't think that proves whether it is slicker or not
As for jet engines - well, been around those too - 24 years - retired Navy flyer. Jet engine oil is normally changed by contamination, not time (or miles - heh, heh) and under goes spectra at routine intervals - but you know that. Synthetic was - I think - developed at a result of the jet engine requirement for an oil able to withstand the internal high temps w/out breaking down.
I completely agree.
"They are called blended synthetics and they are a mix of dino and synthetic oils (they are cheaper than pure synthetic because of the dino oil in them)."
Blended synthetics have turned out to been a marketing success. Some time ago a major brand (again I'm not going to say which one it is, it's still on the market) was calling itself a synthetic when it was not. Now perhaps that oil is blended but they choose not to say so. As I said, I don't know the rules, but no where on the label does that product say "blended." It just may have to meet some SAE obtuse rule, but again that's speculation.
I would guess it was a success because of the price and that the oil did not cause failures. A lot of the synthetic oils used in 2 strokes are blended and unless you read the label carefully you will never know.
AmsOil is another true synthetic. It and Mobil 1 are the only two I know for sure to be true synthetics. Not saying others aren't, I just know those are.
I do not know who makes Arctic Cats synthetic and haven't bothered to to check whether it is blended or not (I have a gallon jugn on the floor of my truck for the next oil change), maybe I should check.
What I have found with AC's synthetic oil is that the oil stays cleaner longer (don't know the reason but at oil change at twice the mileage recommended for the dino oil, it looks and feels cleaner). Maybe I am lucky or then maybe I do what a good break-in requires, but I tend to end up with stronger running motors than the other guy, even when racing rules are designed to prevent it, I still seemed to have it happen. My personnal experience has been favorable with synthetics in 4 stroke motors and unfavorable in 2 stroke motors. So I am not really totally pro synthetics.
#14
12-07-2005, 07:18 AM
too soon for synthetic? + tires
I don't think the cold weather was a problem as the tires were aired and checked each time before a trip while the atv has been stored in an unheated shed.Maybe I should go to 8 to 10 lbs for winter riding.
Just wondering if it is a factory or tire problem.
Just wondering if it is a factory or tire problem.
#16
12-07-2005, 03:56 PM
too soon for synthetic? + tires
"What I have found with AC's synthetic oil is that the oil stays cleaner longer (don't know the reason but at oil change at twice the mileage recommended for the dino oil, it looks and feels cleaner)."
Allow a personal experience. Wife transferring to Hawaii in 1987 (Also Navy Officer) and I'm worried she won't change the oil (correct on my part - not telling her that of course. I did the husband training, I know better). I'm following, but not for over a year. Switch to Mobil 1 ATT in '84 Audi Quattro w/67K miles. just because I know the oil won't be changed.
Continue using Mobil 1 in Audi because it only takes 4qts including filter. Fast fwd several years later. Audi now with 135K miles (keep in mind that 5 cyl engine turned over 4K @ 70MPH). In to the dealer in San Diego for a broken spring in pressure plate. While there ask to have valve cover gasket changed. Pick up car and Service guy says Tech wants to talk to you. That sounds expensive I remember thinking. Tech asks if milage is correct. Yup. I ask why. He says in 20 years he's never seen a valve alley that clean. Did a cyl leak down on his nickel just to check and found compression that expected of an Audi with 25-35K miles. After that I changed everything to synthetic. I wait for sales and stock up. That way the price isn't such a shock. Costco's prices are pretty good all the time.
Consumer's reports did an extensive oil test in July of 1996. NY Taxis. Excellent piece. Conclusion is we change oil too often. Synthetic test deemed not valid because two the three vehicles had engine break downs not related to oil. They changed dino at 6k and synthetic at 12K. No additional wear as compared to oil changed at more normal 3K. Only thing I questioned about their test is Taxis don't shut down so cold start up less of a factor - and that's when the wear occurs.
A couple of years ago there was a big argument on an Explorer forum about synthetic vs. dino oil. Guy offered to use synthetic and change oil when spectra indicated just to prove a point that oil should be changed between 3-5K. Did baseline spectra and spectra conducted every 5K. His Explorer was a V6 w/62K. At 5K, additive package was 1/3 used, at 10K 2/3s at 15K the oil was ready for changing. He moved is oil changes to 7.5K after that. Given the state of today's oils and engines it is my belief we change oil too often if we change at 3K.
Allow a personal experience. Wife transferring to Hawaii in 1987 (Also Navy Officer) and I'm worried she won't change the oil (correct on my part - not telling her that of course. I did the husband training, I know better). I'm following, but not for over a year. Switch to Mobil 1 ATT in '84 Audi Quattro w/67K miles. just because I know the oil won't be changed.
Continue using Mobil 1 in Audi because it only takes 4qts including filter. Fast fwd several years later. Audi now with 135K miles (keep in mind that 5 cyl engine turned over 4K @ 70MPH). In to the dealer in San Diego for a broken spring in pressure plate. While there ask to have valve cover gasket changed. Pick up car and Service guy says Tech wants to talk to you. That sounds expensive I remember thinking. Tech asks if milage is correct. Yup. I ask why. He says in 20 years he's never seen a valve alley that clean. Did a cyl leak down on his nickel just to check and found compression that expected of an Audi with 25-35K miles. After that I changed everything to synthetic. I wait for sales and stock up. That way the price isn't such a shock. Costco's prices are pretty good all the time.
Consumer's reports did an extensive oil test in July of 1996. NY Taxis. Excellent piece. Conclusion is we change oil too often. Synthetic test deemed not valid because two the three vehicles had engine break downs not related to oil. They changed dino at 6k and synthetic at 12K. No additional wear as compared to oil changed at more normal 3K. Only thing I questioned about their test is Taxis don't shut down so cold start up less of a factor - and that's when the wear occurs.
A couple of years ago there was a big argument on an Explorer forum about synthetic vs. dino oil. Guy offered to use synthetic and change oil when spectra indicated just to prove a point that oil should be changed between 3-5K. Did baseline spectra and spectra conducted every 5K. His Explorer was a V6 w/62K. At 5K, additive package was 1/3 used, at 10K 2/3s at 15K the oil was ready for changing. He moved is oil changes to 7.5K after that. Given the state of today's oils and engines it is my belief we change oil too often if we change at 3K.
#17
12-07-2005, 04:17 PM
too soon for synthetic? + tires
I could be wrong and probably am but I am going to say it anyways because i notice it on my atv's and motrcycles. When using synthetic or dino oil in my atv's and bikes I notice its not the oil that breaks down as its always clean when i change it but its the additives that do for the wet clutch becasue the shifting gets harder or more erratic.
#18
12-07-2005, 09:11 PM
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too soon for synthetic? + tires
Thanks for all your info, for the tires I think I will throw a little more air in , can't see it hurting to much. If that dont work they are going back to the dealer.
Justa Question, does there have to be wet clutch oil put in these manuals,or can you use just normal car oil. The reason I ask is I have never used anything any different in my trikes in all the years I used and still use them. I dont seem to have any problem with them. Like I said just a question.
Justa Question, does there have to be wet clutch oil put in these manuals,or can you use just normal car oil. The reason I ask is I have never used anything any different in my trikes in all the years I used and still use them. I dont seem to have any problem with them. Like I said just a question.
#19
12-07-2005, 09:20 PM
#20
12-07-2005, 09:37 PM
too soon for synthetic? + tires
7mm,
I'm using deductive logic here so my answer to your question may be total BS. If someone knows for sure, please weigh in.
The wet clutch system in our quads is similar in function to the clutch pack in the Ford and Chevy positive traction rear ends. By that I mean it has to work in an oil bath and, depending upon the oil used, maqy require a "Friction Modifer" or whatever the mfgr calls it. Obviously the torque in a quad against the clutches isn't nearly as great. The principle is the same. That makes me think that AC's synthetic oil sold under their label may have some sort of friction modifer. That's just a guess, but I do know some oils are certified to use in cars with Traction Loc w/out adding anything, and some are not. It's my understanding that friction modifers are added to cars to prevent the clutch pack from "grabbing" when going around a corner. The grabbing issue was a big deal when Chevy first came out with Posa-trac in the late '50s. This may not be an issue for quads since the torque is less and any problem shouldn't be as pronounced.
A place to check with a little more information is Redline in their oil application descriptions. They talk about their oils that have and do not have the modifer (redline.com). Now all that said...I'd be willing to bet there are guys out there that have put any old cheap oil in their machines and run them for years without problems. In truth our concerns may be moot.
I'm using deductive logic here so my answer to your question may be total BS. If someone knows for sure, please weigh in.
The wet clutch system in our quads is similar in function to the clutch pack in the Ford and Chevy positive traction rear ends. By that I mean it has to work in an oil bath and, depending upon the oil used, maqy require a "Friction Modifer" or whatever the mfgr calls it. Obviously the torque in a quad against the clutches isn't nearly as great. The principle is the same. That makes me think that AC's synthetic oil sold under their label may have some sort of friction modifer. That's just a guess, but I do know some oils are certified to use in cars with Traction Loc w/out adding anything, and some are not. It's my understanding that friction modifers are added to cars to prevent the clutch pack from "grabbing" when going around a corner. The grabbing issue was a big deal when Chevy first came out with Posa-trac in the late '50s. This may not be an issue for quads since the torque is less and any problem shouldn't be as pronounced.
A place to check with a little more information is Redline in their oil application descriptions. They talk about their oils that have and do not have the modifer (redline.com). Now all that said...I'd be willing to bet there are guys out there that have put any old cheap oil in their machines and run them for years without problems. In truth our concerns may be moot.