I see topics about which synthetic oil to use but nothing about when a person should change over. I just got my wifes TRV 500 last night and I am sure by this weekend we should have over 100 miles on it. So when should I do the first oil change and when should I change it over to synthetic. I told her last night to kinda take it easy for the first 20-25 miles by varing the throtle and then she can get into it a little harder. Is this correct for breakin?

Thanks Folks

oldmancrash

 

I like the brake it in like you stoled it method. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] Just don't pin the throttle at wide open for more then a few seconds. This will set the rings in nice and good. Change oil to synthetic anytime after 100 miles [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

OldManCrash,
There is so much nonsense around as to when to change to synthetic oil it's laughable. The most common is - synthetic oil is so slippery you have to wait until the motor is fully broken-in before changing. The reason for this lie is the rings will not seat. That's one of the bigger ones out there and is the basis for your argument of "when to change over."

My counter to those that say that is, well, I guess Porsche and Corvette better put dino oil in their $50000-$130,000 cars because they are run from build with synthetic. Using this argument, those engines will never break in.

So change over ANY TIME YOU DESIRE. Period. You will not hurt the engine and it will break-in just fine.

Your first oil change should be early, however, just because you want to be sure any and all metal particles left over from mfg'ing are flushed out. The engine is flushed at build, but - usually if you have an engine problem early on, it's because there are pieces remaining that missed the initial flush. Yes, wear is higher until broken in, but this is not a problem like it used to be in the '50s and 60s'. This is why driving them hard right out of the box these days is not normally too hard on them. If you did that "drive them like you stole them" thing with engines mfg'ed in the 50s & 60s, there would be no worry...they would blow up - rods, mains, etc. I'm an old fart - been there, done that.

What synthetic is -
- Very stable base stock and that means less anti-friction modifiers, anti-foam agents, anti-rust additives, etc. These additives are known as additive packages and synthetic requires a lot less of them. They are also consumable. Oil never "wears out," but the additive package is "consumed" and that's the reason oil needs to be changed. Ultimately the oil in your engine gets to the point it will not longer keep the engine clean or hold the fine particles in suspension. This is true for all engine oils.
- This very stable base stock is also requires a lot less viscosity enhancers (acting "thicker" when hot and "thinner" when cold - i.e. 10W40). Synthetic oil get to where it's suppose to go quicker, and under a wider range of temperatures than dino oil. It also stands up to thermal stress (hot and cold) much better than dino oil and as a result will not break down at higher temperatures as will dino oil. Above 300 degrees (at the lube surface, not engine temp as read by your gauge) diino oil life is measured in minutes before it begins to coke; synthetic is just fine at temps half again as high.

 

I guess your argument is that porshe and corvette don't have a breakin period...or that synthetic is fine for a breakin....I disagree....I say any engine should run regular oil for breakin.....

I also have 13yrs. experiance in tool & Die (injection mold & automated machines) I have honed and fitted many parts and worked to + .0001/-.0000

or plus one tenth of a thousandth of an inch...minus nothing

 

I bought a 2006 Arctic Cat 400 Auto Fis TRV feb. 7th 2006, in the owner's manual say's first oil change is at 100 mile's. Arctic Cat and suzuki reccomend using regular cat oil untill breakin' at 300 to 500 mile's, but my Dealer told me you can change over to the synthetic after the first oil change in the auto's because they don't have the wet sump like the manual transmission. I didn't go with the synthetic, and i won't untill about the 500 mile mark , i changed my 400 with castrol gtx 20w50 i've used castrol sinse i bought my first ATV an 86' Honda TRX 350 Foreman 4wd ; and it's still running as good as day one ! 10w40 winter, and 20w50 in summer and i drove that thing like a tank, i sold it to my youngest brother november 05' he's got about 50 to 60 pound's over me ; he rode double's with his wife untill i got the new 400 ac ! I sold them my second quad a 93' suzuki LT 300 KQ 4wd a week after i got the 400 , and my cousin bought the KQ one week before the bizzard of 93' . All he ever used in the suzuki was castrol gtx 20w50 , alot of people on these formum's use synthetic in their quad's, some say amsoil; some mobile1; it's all what your preference is ! Oh one other thing the manual say's not to go over half throddle untill the breakin period, that's what i'm going to do with mine !! Be safe, and have a good time with your Quad's everyone.................williebee

 

"I guess your argument is that porshe and corvette don't have a breakin period...or that synthetic is fine for a breakin....I disagree....I say any engine should run regular oil for breakin....."

Squeege, No, I didn't say those engines don't have a break-in period, I said they come from the factory with synthetic oil. They've run synthetic from their first moment. Although you didn't say why engines should use dino for break-in, I'm assuming your logic is the standard one that synthetic oil is too slippery to effect a proper break-in, then the Porsche & Corvette engines (Ferrari too) will never properly seat their rings. Old "wive's tales" die hard.

I'd like to be able to tell you I have personal experience with break-in as it applies to one of the noted engines since I own a Porsche Carrera I ordered and bought new, unfortunately it's an '86 (currently 15,000 miles actual), and purchased prior to Porsche installing synthetic at build. It has, however, had Mobil One 15W50 since it's first change and I do drive it, although not enough to warrant keeping it. Probably go on the block this fall or next spring.

If there is any down side to synthetic - besides cost - it's the issue with gasket leakage due to gasket material. This problem has all but been eliminated because of the new gasket materials used throughout the industry since about the time snythetic first hit the streets for general use.

Given your background, you'll find this of interest. I flew F4's as a Navy pilot in the dark ages - early '70s. All carriers have a spec lab and all jets have used synthetic oil forever. Their oil is changed, not by hours, but by spec analysis. I have no idea how the MilSpec additive package for jet engine use differs from the auto additive package. I believe the heavy equipment industry also changes oil based on spec analysis, not hours. Don't believe they use synthetic however.

 

The reason the manufactures say to use dino oil for break-in is that is a lot cheper to put dino oil in at the factory than synthetic. That's it, just plain old economics. Synthetic will not stop break-in or even slow it down. Synthetic is more heat resistant (it was developed for jet engines as they were trashing the dino oil in as little as a couple of hours) and does not break down as fast as dino oil because of that. Actually the dino oil doesn't get destroyed, it's mainly the additives that get trashed, that's why they can recycle the dino oil.

 

Bear i agree with you in part about the economics that Arctic Cat,suzuki,Honda,Yamaha and all the factory manufacturer's use the cheapest oil to save money ! They also reccomend that you use their brand of oil's,OEM part's all their brand to make money (bottom line ) money !! When castrol brought out the syntec blend oil, i changed my oil on my old 86'honda 350 foreman i bought the oil filter from my honda dealer; i told him i was going to change over to castrol syntec . He told me to watch closely for any clutch slipping because of the wet sump engine and transmission sharing the same oil, and he had other people bringing their quad's in with complaint's of the manual shift transmission clutch slipping and damage to the clutch plates ! I went ahead and changed to castrol syntec and after about a month my forman started showing sign's of chutch slippage and blue smoke coming from the exhaust when i first started the engine after it sat 12 - to - 24 hour's, it would clear up after warm - up ... I changed back to regular castrol GTX 20w50 oil and after a week or so the smoking stopped and i didn't have to adjust the clutch either ! From that time on i used castrol GTX 20w50 in summer and 10w40 in winter... I didn't try any other brand's of synthetic oil's so it might not have done this with some other brand's. From 88' to sept. 2005 when i sold the honda to my brother the only repair's were, 1starter,2 batteries, one rear swing arm wheel bearing, brakes(shoe's and wheel clinder's ), 3 valve adjustment's And a new gas tank....my fault for the tank riding though a deep creek water up to the seat, the 86' forman had the metal tank mounted under the seat and i did my own repair's! I changed the oil about 3 times a year and kept the air filter cleaned and oiled every two to three week's more when it was real dry and dusty. That old 86' foreman 350 4x4 had the heavy straight axle front end diff. and i used it like a tank and bull dozer, i never had to replace any of the cv boot's they were made out of leather instead of the rubber one's on the newer quad's.. I really abused that honda, i never checked or changed the diff's gear oil, i told my brother when i sold it to him we need to change it but he hasn't took the time to do it. That thing has been like a timex watch it took a lickin' and is still tickin' today !!!.........

 

The oil, whether it is dino or synthetic must be "Wet Clutch" compatable and if it has certain additive (it escapes me which ones they are) they will trash your clutch. That pretty much why I run AC's synthetic, as I know for sure it won't trash my clutch.

 

You're right again Bear there's alot of difference in motor oil's since 1986, and there are many brand'sand type's of oil since then. I've misplaced my manual and i can't say for sure what the type synthetic oil that's safe to use in wet sump transmission's, there is a reference as to witch one's are to use, and there's a reference as to what type gear oil to use in the diff.'s in the manual !! You are right on about using the ac brand synthetic because you don't have to worry about the right type, and this insure's not to void your factory warantee ; better to play it safe than sorry ! I got my oil filter from my cat Dealer she has raced everything from 125cc class canam motocross and won her first tropy at the age of 4 yrs. old. She went as far as taking over the family owned Can Am shop from her father and older brother and started building her own engine's an set up her own bike's. She went from 2 wheeler's to four then stockcar racing, all the way too nascar bush series racing, her first sponser was maiden form; yes she was called a tomboy all her life for her passion for racing. She's the one who talked me into buying my Cat, as i had always been Honda then suzuki atv's. The last visit to the shop for the filter for my first oil change, she didn't try to talk me into buying cat oil i just told her i just bought the cat filter because i didn't know of a cross reference for a different brand.. But i asked her if using the oil i had alway's used in my other quad's, would be safe,she said it would be fine and wouldn't void my warrantee ! She also told me if and when i had to replace any part's under warrantee that she would get the part's for me and let me do my own repair work since i have over 20 yrs. as a small engine tech that she would keep record's showing they did the work at her shop !!! She's a very nice lady ! I've heard stories were other dealer have refused to work on cycle's and atv's bought from other Dealer's, but not her , she has went out of her way to get part's for me and other's at half the cost honda and all the other dealer charged for the same part ! There's not another dealer in my town of north west Ga. that will do this for me or anyone else.... The last time i asked her about her racing she told me she was about to wind up a deal with sears to drive in the truck series , sorry for the long post i just thought i would toot my horn for this dealer; maybe someone close to my area looking for a good dealer to purchase a new quad ! She sell's not just ATV's, she sell's everything from mt. bikes to the largest motorcycles !!..........well me and my brother are going to tenn. in the morning at Prentice cooper for a full day of riding, be safe everyone, hope you all get to ride this weekend...........be safe and have fun...................williebee P.S. Have a good weekend Bear, hope you get to ride some, and take some photo's everyone, me and my brother are going to take our camera's with us and hope to get some good pic.'s of our ride that we can post on the formum's................williebee