I guess this goes without saying - but I'll say it anyway...

When it comes to brand loyalty, one has to remember this. Whey you have just shelled out thousands of dollars for something, as long as you are reasonably happy with it, you are going to defend it like crazy. You want to be able to justify why you just spent all that money. Expecting owners to be completely impartial is probably not realistic.

I figure what it comes down to is to check it out for yourself. A wise person will check out all the brands, compare prices, specs etc. If you do enough research before handing over thousands of dollars, you really can't go wrong with any brand out there.

It seems to me that there is such a fine line between the different brands, all variations on a theme. Each has positives and negatives. The key is what brand and model works best for the individual. If somebody bases their decision on only what they read in magizines, they have bigger problems to deal with.

 

I also have a problem with the article. The AC won two catagories ground clearance and the loaded rack test. Am I right? How many catagories did the Rubicon win? I don't believe any. The Rubicon has a very good transmission, true. But that is all there is to it. Solid axle, drum brakes, soso power. I've ridden with several and rode them myself. they will not spin bigger tires as good as the 450s. This is not ment to bash at all. If I had to have an auto quad, it would be the Honda. But it to is way behind the game. The rag still placed the Rubicon above the AC. Like I said how many classes did each win when I figure it up the Ac doesn't come in last.
Why are these rags so afraid to rate a honda last? It could be the best thing for them. Honda may get tired of being last and get off their butts and do something about it. We can see AC is trying, look at all the changes this year, Bombardier(?) they too are always making changes.
I do not think AC should win. But by no means should they be last if the test is done like Mr. Hansen says.
I do thank Mr. Hansen for coming on here to defend his magazine. I to believe it to be the better of the big three. Allthough after this "shootout" it rates somewhat lower, in my book. There is NO WAY a magazine can be totally unbiased in an article like this when it takes advertising dollars, from the manufacturers. There is just too much to lose for them

 

I tend to be long winded, but I'm fighting off that urge here, and I'll only reply to one thought. A couple people mentioned that there is seemingly no way we could be honest in any evaluation when we get so much money from the manufacturers. Of course, I could ramble on against this forever. But let me just say, put yourself in our shoes. We write these stories for you, actually about 250,000 of you who get the magazine regularly. I have to answer to you, like I'm doing now. What would you do? Okay, I get emotional about this one like you might about your machine ownership. We compile fair articles. We don't lie to you or anyone. We don't favor any manufacturer over another. We test machines the way we want to. We let all the manufacturers watch the testing, and all of them praised us for bring tough, honest, and fair. They wouldn't have said that if we favored one.

I'm really not sure how to put it more simply.

 

I don't doubt that you try (and mostly succeed) in being fair in your apprasials of ATV's. However, what if one ATV did so poorly against the others, that you couldn't even say anything good about it? Would you sugar-coat things just a bit to keep the maker off your back? Is there a real fear that if you said anthing too disparaging about a company that they could pull their advertising?

I would hope not. A true journalist calls it like they see it - nothing more, nothing less.

I think what people are getting at is that the appearance of tampering (for lack of a better word) by the makers (through advertising agreements)just does not feel right to us looking for unbiased reviews. While you insist it does not exist (and I believe you), the appearance is almost more damaging.

Just look at sport journalist. If they are too harsh in their assessment of a coaching move, they may never get an interview with that coach again. They know that, and may back off on how they really feel to prevent the loss of a future relationship.

Just my 2 cents.

 

Good points Mudcat and JBurglund. Brandless: I understand how you could get really upset when people say things about how you write your articles when you are (clearly) trying to produce an unbiased review. (And about the advertising $$)

You made good points and I am glad that you come here to discuss it. Everyone is making good points and i feel no wrong could come from any of us hearing what each other's thoughts are. In your case it could maybe help better your mag and for us it may clear up untruths we thought and give us more confidence in your product.

 

Brandless, why don't you give torque values after the dyno results? I know the dyno measures torque. This is more indicative of power being made than BHP. It's very helpful to see where the power is made in relation to RPM too. I'm sure the fall off of power on the Arctic Cat could be used to diagnosed an engine problem. These are stroker engines which produce more torque than BHP in some cases. By showing dyno charts this will give you more objective information in which you can positively evalutate a unit.

 

Brandless, thanks again for another post. I understand why the issue of ad revenue influence is a touchy subject with you and like I said, impartiality could be more of a question of appearance than fact. I should credit you for having the reps there... this certainly helps nix the impartiality concerns. Anyway, that issue aside, I point you to a question I asked in my prior post... being a very experienced and intelligent reviewer (with all the cool dyno gadgets and stuff), did the 14 HP result seem to surprise you at all? I don't mean to harp on this, but at the end of your article you say "we're not sure what happened to this one, but it didn't seem to perform up to its abilities". This comment seems to indicate to me that there may have been some underlying issue that was causing this particular machine to underperform. We hope to hear from you again. Oh yeah, don't worry about being long winded; I enjoy hearing your point of view. Afterall, its only fair since you had to put up with our long winded arguments. Regards.

 

I've sat back and read this thread with some interest. For one, I'm sure NOT ONE of you (except Brandless, since it's his job) has ever straddled every brand of machine, in the same day. Comparing a buddies machine to another friend's machine, weeks later, doesn't really cut it as far as being reliable. I'd dismiss untruths from ATV Magazine since they had the OEMs at the shootout. Do you honestly think ATV Mag would print AC's 14 HP if it wasn't so? Come on, the AC guy was there, wasn't he? To say the winner is the one with the most advertisements is also simply crazy.

I've always read ATV Magazine, and it has always been a "real" magazine. You don't see any utility quads taking jumps on each page (like some other mags) ATV Mag has always said good AND bad about everything, even the product reviews. Why, they even had two, local ATV enthusiasts for the big-bore "shootout" with them. Ever see any other mag do that? What would those two individuals have to gain by not telling how they feel about each machine?
I'd also rather see ground clearance measured in the real riding world, like ATV Mag did, than with a tape measure like other Mags do. I don't ride on a blacktop road. I ride on trails, with rocks on them, just as they did. Sand bags on machines for testing? I feel that's factual tests. Ever see that in Dirt Wheels......LOL

As long as Mr. Hansen is aware of this thread, you might as well tell him exactly how you would test machines. I'd be interested also.

Good job ATV Magazine!

 

I do believe that ATV Magazine, uses the most real world test for their shootouts. I do not allways agree with the out come though. Wether the test includes my brand or not.
Like I said before though if you add up points the AC doesn't come in last. At least that is the way I read it.
I an very immpressed that Mr Hansen came on here and defended the Magazines position. It does answer some questions.
As far as future testing. I would like to see the Quads put trough a very tough section of trail, not a timed event but who can get through with the least dificulty. Perhaps ridden by the real world owners, some of these quads have certain quirks that after you get use to them they will perform better. For example the dif. lock on the Kawi. The people that I know who own this quad say that it takes some getting use to before you get it's full potential. Also knowing when to be in high or low range, d2 or d2. These would be used just for the performance part of testing. I realize the logistics of something like this could be a nightmare. But it is a thought.
After this thread I will say that I will look at ATV Magazine a little bit different. I remember when they did bot on hop ups to utility quads. Do they still do that. I would like to see some stuff like that too. Please no more of the same old one or two models. We've all seen how to build up the 450 so many times. Also How many times can they test that same quad, (mainly the other mags). But I will go ahead and subscribe to ATV Magazine, I think it is worth a second chance.

 

I understand the credibility of the writers and the magazine is a stake here but I don't buy the reasons these guys are telling us. I would think if this is such a "Biggest Baddest Shootout" there would be more data on engine performance. The sled was a good measurement of pull performance but BHP alone was not on the engine dyno results. The sand bag test was an excellent test for loaded performance but what about measuring loaded ground clearance with the sand bags. I think you could have given Honda a better play as well in the 500 comparison.

I won't subscribe to this magazine because the article are so thin I can read it off the shelf. Keep trying and I'll keep reading.