My question to you guys is this? which is the better all around quad? Which one is going to do the best in a tight trail? things like that. to me a straight line race tells me squat about an atvs capabilities.

 

i ask this because the dealer up here won't keep any DS's in stock he will order one , but i guess as trail machines for northern Maine that are not doing well, he doesn't reccomend them. As for the Raptor people are liking them as trail machines. That is all we have up here, no dunes or anything like it , no tracks, just good trail riding with lots of different terrain. I have owned Yamaha atvs and snowsleds and found them to be of high quality, Yamaha ,makes a great machine, there is no doubt about it, Not sure about the DS , there snowmobiles are generally not liked up here. I drive Polaris now of all the machines I have owned Polaris has held up the best and has the best features for the type of riding i do. to flat out say Yamaha is no good , that is crazy and really most people could care less what manufacturer wins races.

 

I have not ridden the Raptor for two reasons, I don't own one and never will and I don't think I would care to ride one. I didn't like the 400EX because it was so narrow and the Raptor is even narrower. Since they are so new, the first one that I know of was the one that my father had seen. I had to work, so I missed it. Granted, they look good, but Yamaha has a less then stellar history with durability and quality. I also have over twenty years experience with off-road vehicles and ATV's. Plus, common sense and a grasp of reality will tell you after looking at the stats and really reading the reviews that it is an unstable platform that is not intended for the environments that I ride in. I ride almost strictly in the dunes these days. If I want to do some trail riding, I'll get a motorcycle. Since you need to be street legal to ride 90% of the dirt and forrestry roads in this state, ATV's for trail riding is kinda a moot point.

As far as your drags go, did you try starting in second? In races with my father, whoever started in second would win, if the other started in first. You may have geared it too much if you can't shift while going up a hill, or the hill you are hitting is one of the steepest at Winchester, then I can see that maybe an upshift might not be possible. I am running Scat Trak II's and I can upshift to third half way up any hill at Horsefall dunes, in Coos Bay/North Bend. You might try going back to the stock front sprocket and trying some different rears. I have to adjust my rear suspension, because if I had a fifty foot run, I would be in third. I spin the tires so easily, that I am shifting from first to second within ten feet and from second to third within another 15-20 feet. I'm shifting because I am hitting the limiter, by the way. It revs that quick. I can start at walking speed up the dune in first, gun it, shift to second and if the hill is about 100+ feet tall, even shift to third.

I probably won't be getting down to the Florence or Coos Bay/North Bend dunes until next spring at the earliest. I need at least a four day break to make it worth while, since it takes at least 6-7 hours if traffic is good and theirs no staters roaming around. I usually take a few breaks, so driving there or back is usually a whole day afair. But, it's very much worth it. I would move down there if it weren't for relatives, friends and work.

Laters,
CRT_Leech

 

CRT
the stock gearing is a 13 on the front, by dropping to a 12 it dropped it down, even at that while I was in second, Jay on his 310r was in 4th. 1st gear is comparable to 1st and 2nd of any other machine, and 2nd is like 3rd and 4th. ( long gearing ) with the 13 in the trails, I would top at in first and be lugging in second, by dropping one tooth resolved that now it is perfect on the trails. I have tried to launch in second, and if I had gone with 8 paddle hualers I think I could, but with the 9's it luggs a bit off the gettgo.... but one thing to remeber is that 1st tops out over 30mph..... so its not like many other bikes in that regards. I am glad that you are happy with your ds, I have never knocked them, but I feel the same about a ds as you do the raptor, so please, rather than trying to convince each other of that.... I would like to say I am glad that you are more than happy with your bike, I am more than happy with mine, lets go riding next spring when you have a chance!!

C-ya

 

OH, Crap, I cant keep quiet any longer. This started out as a post because a guy declined a race with a 59 year old man, who happens to be a rather obnoxious poster's father. I hate to say but if he has an attitude like his son's I would decline to race also. But given that he was riding and winning he apparently has more skill than his son has sense. To say that the raptor and banshee are poor quads is really a matter of opinion. But to a Rider that has never slung a leg over one to say anything is really not worth reading, especially over and over.
I give credit to those who do race with a DS or Whatever and do win. I would just like to say this.
If done properly, maintenance on any Yamaha whether banshee or raptor is not that difficult. It takes all of 30 seconds too take the raptors airfilter in and out. The banshee is somewhat more complicated, but anyone who didnt like the way it fit bought an aftermarket one anyways. Also chain adjustment is complicated on a banshee but if you do it right, it should not have to be done again for a while. I personally dont find these problems any more difficult than trying to properly change the oil filter on a DS.
At this point all of the riders who have had this or that go wrong excepting the 1 A-arm that bent on Bash's, have admitted landing or jumping off of a fairly steep jump on some type of track. Im not saying its not a problem, but so far it has been limited to a few cases. I think that if you really look at the machine, all of the things you predicted to be wrong have not been. The only Issue appears to be gearing of second gear. Other than that, the suspension, which has the same travel as the banshee and that you guys all said would be crap is very plush and very well made. The Two carbs being hard to jet, has been done by Paul B and it takes 30 mins. And my favorite that you have all talked about since viewing the video on june 8 2000, is that its Tippy... That video shows a rider pulling the front off the ground due to acceleration out of a corner. This thing will pull the front just by powering it with throttle. Ive been through atleast 2 corners way too fast, and it was like being on a rail. No hint of tipping. But if you want to slide it loose, gas harder and slide the rear through the corner it does break loose. Does it still sit too narrow or too tall?, I havent found an instance yet where either where an issue.
You guys have had your share of problems: axle carrier bearings, ball joints, carb springs, oil pressure lights, neutral lights, rev limiters, broken headlight frame, bent a-arms, and poor Scooby's thrashed topend.
I just dont see the sense in bashing a new quad with relativeley few problems. or a 13 year old design that was kept so that we had a choice not to be on a 4x4 from now until eternity, thats only complaints have been hard to adjust the chain and hard to align the filter.
The Ds isnt the end all either Its a proven engine(rotax austria), but Had Bombardier even had the ***** to come up with their own how would it have faired. All they had to do is to design a chassis, thats why they are so slow on producing updated versions, If you would remember release of it was delayed 2 months because the parts they were recieveing from companies where failing. Im not bashing them, Im just stating every quad has its limitations in design, all of them have some short comings. The DS has very good design but at the expense of weight. I Really wish some of you people would wise up and figure out what really matters is that there are still companies willing to make atv's. Why dont you go and complain about Kawasaki and Suzuki for giving up on new quads 10 years ago. I dont hear many of you saying my DS just wiped up against a 2001 Tecate or a 2001 Quadracer. I also have noticed that maybe you people live in an area with dunes and thats where you guys are racing. Thats fine. I just dont have any dunes to ride on, I do have trails though and yes some are 48" wide but in most places they are not they are about 72" wide.
I dont recall ever in the last 2 years seeing a DS on the trail but we have several banshees and 400ex riders. I know my raptor is going to need an aftermarket sproket set if I plan to ride in the dunes, but duh I also need some sand tires too. Havent seen either in a few years. So given that my raptor wont beat a DS with sand tires up a little sand hill if i could ever find one(by the way doesnt that get a little boring). I bet your DS with sand tires wont do very well through a trail either. My point is something gives you an advantage in some areas but is a disadvantage in others. Its just up to the rider as to how arrogant and assanine they want to be about their machine. Some people should find more time if all they can do is run around and say my this is faster than your whatever. Im still looking at the GNCC and AMA, where them DS's AT? Oh i forget they are all out in little sahara running all over raptors, banshees, and 400ex's. They can stay there too, because they already have been passed on by the race teams. Oh well I probably typed a whole page so Ill shut up and see what cracks you guys can come up with. Thats my $2dollars and 22 cents.

Later,
YaMaRaPtoR

 

Well all I have 2 say is on thing. And I think all of the Bombardier owners will get a laugh out of it. But as for the yamaha owners they might not like this to much. My friend gets a subscription to a magazine like 4 wheel action I'm not to sure of the name. But three months ago they promised a shoot out between the 400ex, DS650, and the Raptor. Then the second month came and they were saying the shootout is comming. Then the last month its finally out but guess what? NO BOMBARDIER in the shootout!!! Boy I wonder did Yamaha pay off the magazine company not to put it up against the Bombardier? It's all propiganda dont believe anything you read!!!!


Bomber

 

You may think that I am a jerk, but it's only been in response to BansheeBills single-minded, useless comments.

Well, considering that when I have rode, the Raptor wasn't even out in this area, so riding one would be kinda difficult, eh? My comments and my "opinion" is based on information from magazines, seeing them in person and talking to their owners. I have seen and heard of all the problems associated with the Banshee over and over again. It's well documented in the ATV magazines, so enough said.

The problems with the DS650 are minor in most cases and have been actively worked by Bombardier. They didn't wait until a later production model to fix something like Yamaha did with the J-arms or not fix it at all with all the other problems.

You say the Raptor problems are only a few small cases, well, that's the same for the DS650. People are talking smack about the Raptor, because all the Yamaha fanatics said it was the best ATV that was every made. They had made so much fun of an ATV that they were not even interested in, posting crap in forums that they had no interest in anyway, since they didn't own a Bombardier and never intended too. Well, now the Raptor comes out and it's got problems and design issues itself and you guys are wondering why everybody is putting it down? It's the old "what comes around, goes around". It may not be nice, it may not be fair, but, that's what happened. If you don't like it, then stop coming into the Bombardier forum, then you won't "hear" about it. I haven't seen as many people going into the Yamaha forum and talking smack against them, so why do you insist on doing it here? It appears very defensive and reactionary. It's like you have to defend your purchase. Do you guys all work for Yamaha or something????

Just because I didn't go out and buy a Banshee or a Raptor just to find out if it's a piece of crap or not, isn't a valid argument. Most people won't let somebody they don't know ride their brand new ATV. I don't even ask to ride other peoples ATV's, and I don't let people ride mine. I have had experiences in the past where someone borrows an ATV, breaks it and says sorry or something to that effect and that's about it. I don't want my equipment wrecked and I don't expect someone else to either.

Like I have said before, long before the Raptor came out, I hoped that it was more stable than what the statistics suggested. I am glad people are happy with it, but I am sure that rider skill has played more in their safety and it's "stability" than the design. Even the magazines implied that it was unstable for less experienced riders. Heck, I might even like it if I rode it. I am used to lots of body English from my experience with ATC's, so for somebody like me, it might not be an issue. But, for somebody new to the sport, young and indestructible (just like the new Ninja/Katana and other sport bike enthusiast) that doesn't have any ATV experience; they may not be so lucky. That has been my main concern that Yamaha is producing a bundle of lawsuits waiting to happen, which will affect every manufacturer and enthusiast, not just Yamaha (see the lawsuit against Honda, that has kept ATV's like the DS650 and Raptor from being made for over ten years!). That is probably why the Raptor "seems" so limited in the speed and acceleration department when compared to the DS, which it should beat every time.

Oh, and by the way, Bombardier owns Rotax, so, it is an in house engine.

The only time I raced a Banshee was in the sand, with about three hours on the ATV, with the stock Dominators. The Banshee had paddle tires and a rider that weighed about 100 pounds less then I did at that time. His had about 6 hours on it, also being brand new. The rider had several years of experience.

As far as the not seeing the DS on the track in the last two years, well duh, it's only been out since January. Does the GNCC and AMA even allow four strokes in that large of a displacement? Where's the Raptors in those same standings?

The soonest you'd be likely to see DS650 or a Raptor would be next season, since most riders have had their ATV choice made already, designed and built by then. The DS650 wasn't designed to be a MX ATV, but, it has been shown to perform with a custom framed ATV with a Honda 600 motor and a highly modified 250R set up specifically for the MX track. On a course that took a minute and 19 seconds to finish by the 250R, it finished the same track only two seconds slower. This was with a production quad with no modifications.

If BansheeBill would have talked about his opinion, then I might have listened to him and I would have responded with as much respect as he had given. But, all he would say is what a piece of crap the DS650 is how wonderful the Banshee is. Where's his facts, how does he quantify his statements? He doesn't. He just spews garbage from his keyboard.

Laters,
CRT_Leech

 

Very well put Mr.Leech. Ive run into problems with people that wont ride with you because of what you ride. To many stereo types out there. My buddy had a ex400, wouldnt ride with me for 3 months,until he got his raptor. I own a ds and I like it. Its not what you ride as long as you ride. Its not how fast you go,its how well you go fast. From what ive seen if you dont ride a yamaha you suck. Which is wrong! Anything mechanical will hgave its problems, no matter if you ride Yamaha, aDs Honda,ect. Im not knocking any machine. But the raptor should be the best thing sense sliced bread, but its not. To me and my experience I ould rather have a banshee than a raptor.

 

If given only the choice between the Banshee and the Raptor, right now, I would take the Banshee. I know most, if not all of the problems with the Banshee and there are plenty of parts out there to fix it's shortcomings. In a year, I would probably choose the Raptor IF there were a similar aftermarket parts base as the Banshee and it doesn't turn out to be a complete pile of crap.

Now, if I had my choice of any machine, it would be a Honda 650+ cc four stroke, chromoly or aluminum framed with reverse, speedometer, tachometer, 12" of suspension front and back, with a similar stance to the DS650.

The Canondale shows immense promise, but it's only promises right now. If it has the hp equal to the DS650, suspension equal to the DS650/400EX then I might consider trading. Reverse would be cool, but I haven't required it enough to trade for a Raptor, that's for sure.

The only reason I would (and did, that being the 400EX) choose a Honda over the DS650 is because of the history of quality products and the availability of parts down the road, though, not always from Honda. They have the money to make a lot of ATV's, regardless if they are going to sell or not, which of course, they usually do. Plus, in most cases, they have better workmanship, more durable, more dependable and are more technologically advanced then the competition.

Now, it's a game of wait and see if someone can beat Honda in these areas and wether Honda will make something to compete with the DS650 and Raptor.

Laters,
CRT_Leech

 

Are you one of those guys who breaks ball joints all the time at Moses Lake.The reason I know this is a few months ago, memorial day weekend, Almost every DS I tried to race had something wrong with there ball joints. The only one I raced I beat, but he thought it was a 400 yard drag race, and he kept going. Now about that old man thing, last weekend I went to beverly sandunes, you should know where that is, by Vantage. There was a banshee w/pipes, a raptor w/ paddles, and a DS with paddles also. They raced about 10 times and the DS was dead last, where was that old man? The raptor rider the old guy raced was probably a beginner, have that old guy or you, come ride with the big boys in WA, I will race any time. (Except now because my bike is all apart).