I am not ERBE, but Kurt is hands on expert.

 

You guys might want to check with Millenium. I heard through the grapevine that ERBE's Aluminum sleeved cylinder was their first and last..........

Don't take my word for it, check it out before you get your heart set on one. I might be wrong, but I doubt it..................... [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

 

Do you mean 'last' in that it is LIFE TIME GUARANTEED?
Or 'last' in that the newly developed DS supercharger won't require big bore, high CR, or high Octane that depletes motor lives prematurely?
Or are you just spreading propoganda?

Please explain yourself DSNUT if you were making an assessment of fact beyond pure speculation alone,
since experts who deal with all materials metalurgically and all motorcycle types cylinder machining guarantee this work for a lifetime as they do ALL of their work. Their expertise should be above all else, since metallurgy (especially) and machining are 2 intense fields of their own, especially combined.

Because it is their first, does not mean last. A standard insert would be a feasible alternative IF it didn't work out. BUT WHAT ABOUT TheBom's AL insert???
Pami has excellent results to date. So what exactly is the difference between these 2 products other than price? Pami can't do near the business or have equivalent Metallurgical expertise Millinnium does supporting all types, including Jap bike racers.

But by all means check it out. The only thing Millinnium doesn't have that I know of is paid hypsters/bashers since their product is sold to factory racers and sells itself at a reasonable cost and lifetime guaranteed. Check it out please. Excellent advice DSNUT.

 

Yjacket, I already have a big bore. I think this is true, call Millenium and see for yourself......... If Kurt says this is not the case, I will admit I was wrong.

 

DSNUT,

Kurt did say that because he heard nothing from ERBE and a rumour that it couldn't be done (by HPR's Big Bore company? but not Pami) and their reputation. So until they are more familiar with process as experts, they will not GUARANTEE it like ANY OTHER cylinder company.

However, and here's the BEST part, they will drill out liner to AL cylinder for a 102mm (700cc) for the exact size I wanted to begin with for $215. The cylinder is AL so it will be like big bore exept a closer engineered size to oem with a LIFETIME GUARANTEE. That saves another couple of hundred dollars or $1500, however you look at it.

Thanks DSNUT for the hands on research and saving more money.
Someone referred them to HPR, and did not mention Pami had great success with the same exact process; when someone convinced him not to guarantee the process. For 105mm, he referred me to HPR, lol.
If I wanted the 730, I have no reservations in getting it from Millinnium; but the 700 is perfect.
The size would require a previous 720 or 730 cylinder to safely insert the 730 AL cylinder, and was an initial reason for deciding on 700cc. But there are many others, among which is the lifetime guarantee.

Good job, thanks!

 

As I wrote before I'm the Guinea Pig on the aluminum sleeved 720 from Millennium I had a cylinder that had a 105mm steel sleeve and instead of junking it I had it repaired after a long discussion with Millennium about this was Millenniums 1st one.
Any arrangements on guaranty are between me and Millennium, as for the the alternative to HPRs and TVI kits yes they can bore to 105mm and coat with Nikisil still for a VERY low cost.
Seems HPR contacted Millennium about the 720 Sleeve bores and were telling them that there are head sealing problems and they will fail. But after chatting with Millennium they said the R/D work on the DS 650 is still going on there are only 2 of us that I know off so far trying out the cylinders I think lets see what happens first before we go crying wolf, remember the failures were with steel sleeves and not aluminum sleeves, plus most of us will use the Cometic gaskets sets also.
Scooby building the BEAST, I'm building a Dunning Play Machine, Runs on Gas, Play Cams, Mild Porting, No NOS, No Alcohol will not in the DS.

Millennium can bore to 105MM and do the Coating also, my thoughts are that competitors are a bit nervous about Millennium.
If Millennium cylinders do in fact hold up and work its a major blow to the folks selling the Cast Big Bore Kits and I'm sorry if it hurts your business but as a consumer I have the right to look for and purchase products based on cost, reliability, quality, performance, I deal with this on a daily basis as a Fabricator of Die Cut Parts and I need to perform to my customers needs or they will go to another vender.

 

millenium is the most recognized cylinder plater in the business. All you guys will be fine.

 

The crying wolf that I saw was this aluminum sleeve option was presented on this forum as a done deal that was seemingly without risk. Don't you think that if Millenium makes a statement like "this 105mm cylinder will not carry the same lifetime warranty that our other cylinders carry" and they are only trying one or two before they will build any others, that information should be presented as well. Even Yjacket was looking seriously at them thinking that this 105mm cylinder had the same lifetime guarenty as everything else they do.

ERBE, you say your warranty arrangements with Millenium are between you and them, i.e. none of anybody else's business. That tells me that they told you they would try it and it should work, but that if it fails you are on your own. That this is your money and you are gambling it. If you had a guarenty from them, you would have used that to refute what I have found hiding under the surface of this utopic big bore for 1/4th the cost.

I want to make sure I fully understand the situation and it seems to be riskier than was represented in previous threads by Milleniums own refusal to offer their lifetime guarenty on it. I wish big bores were a 1/4th the cost, but until we see the proof of this holding up, there is a reason they cost what they do.

I think everyone has a clearer view that this is new and that the reason the price is so low relates to the level of risk still out there with the method.

 

DSNUT,

Until you called Millennium, as far as I know it was guaranteed. The 720/730 used cylinder was always a constraint I assumed for 105mm insert. 102mm (~700cc) AL lined IS lifetime guaranteed with stock cylinders (even after your propoganda call) - $215 custom fit to exact piston.

And you just cut your business associate throat when he DOES do AL inserts with the quality Pami company. HPR's company is sticking to what they CAN do, so that's ok. But to have paid hypsters spread propoganda to unique skilled business experts cutting other business owners throats at the same time, and trying to reduce customers options is not smart business. When the only fact is Westell, Westec, West,.. foundry/machinest for HRP can't do it (I didn't get the exact foundry name, but the cats out of the bag in case we want to investigate why they don't have the same foundry/machining capabilities/expertise that Pami and Millennium does). Foundries don't have machinest expertise and usually rely on automated equipment to finish castings off.

DSNUT concludes with
"I think everyone has a clearer view that this is new and that the reason the price is so low relates to the level of risk still out there with the method. "

What a load! The price is the same no matter what! (do I need to repeat that?) 105 is beyond the cylinder size specs, not beyond the process quality. The method is guaranted with a 102mm or approximately 700cc. That's $460 with piston, cylinder, and gaskets - Millinnium has big bore single kits $460-$700, with higher cost ($700) if they have to put a liner in used Big bore. So for $500 for 700cc big bore kit lifetime guaranteed, and can get piston Truely customized versus piston with customized options for drag racing specifically.

He did ask me what the 'Big Bore' kit cost that he referred me to, and I could hear his mouth hang open and he asked me again just to make sure. I wouldn't count on any referals, but of course I could be mistaken. I did not say anything, except asked and answered questions based on your previous post; and to thank him for his unique expertise and valuable time.

 

The price is not the same no matter what. It is only the same if it works. It is more if it doesn't work and you have to start over. That is the risk. I have every right to be skeptical about this when you consider the design of the stock DS cylinder. It is not made to bore out this far. I am curiously watching Scooby's project as I am watching ERBE's project and contrary to your unsubstantiated implications, I am doing so on my own time for my own education on what works and what doesn't.

Btw, if I am not mistaken, Millenium does the coating for the HPR cylinders. Millenium is a service provider for HPR.

You made my point Yjacket. You said that until I called Millenium, as far as you knew the 105 sleeved cylinder was guarenteed. That is the reason I brought this information to this thread. We all got the impression that these sleeved cylinders were guarenteed for life. I simply found out that they weren't. Your use of the word, "propaganda" implies that I somehow changed the cylinders status from guarenteed to un-guaranteed because of a bias. That is not the case. I thought as you did that it was guarenteed which was appealing in the sense that the risk was somewhat limited. Once I found out that it wasen't, I thought you all should know. Aren't you glad you know, Yjacket?

Here is the really funny part. I never once called Millenium. I have never talked to anyone there. I have never spoken to Kurt. You did and you got the information that supported my suspicion.

I appreciate you taking care of that leg work for me and none of my comments were in referance to the 102mm. I am only pointing out the risk involved in the 105mm which is the one they are choosing not to guarenty.

The real question here is, is this an industrial revolution that will put conventional big bore wisdom on its ear? Or is it another too good to be true scenario? The answer is impossible to predict until the method is tried and proved one way or the other.

Now that everybody knows how this scenario really looks, lets all wait and see if it works! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]