Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
Jun 6, 2006 | 01:36 AM
#91
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
Originally posted by: 650VIPER
I did forget about kade, he did beat me motor to motor. Damn lightwieght bikes,lol!
I did forget about kade, he did beat me motor to motor. Damn lightwieght bikes,lol!
You would not want me too use my button against ya I can outrun Kade when I spray, untill he hooks his back up!!
Jun 6, 2006 | 11:08 AM
#92
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
Originally posted by: OregonDunePatrol
Jed,
I'd be happy to give you some names of independant local builders who know about the temp changes and oxygen levels and how they affect A/F. I know its going to be difficult to hear it from me, considering the employer I work for. Perhaps some independant expertise will help clear the air. You might consider any one of many Oregon Builders who run into this temp issue all the time. Actually, its what keeps many of those guys busy in the winter months - rebuilding the ATVs that go lean in those cool months. I'll email you some telephone numbers tomorrow.
For sleds, its exactly the opposite. Many guys test and tune snowmobiles in temps lower than 0 degrees F. Then they try and ride in 35-40 degree weather in the early spring and they run rich- and the sleds act pretty doggy - well at least the carbed ones. The EFI ones have pressure and temp sensors to adjust for elevation and outside temp. Which is why those rarely have problems. I do believe that Major's Gixxer has EFI with those sensors on the intake.
As far as masking goes, I catch your drift. I honestly dont think anybody is doing any masking on here from a parts standpoint. I sincerely hope that you are considering the other quads, including Brindleys, that had issues - whether it be on or off of nitrous. All I ask is some thoughtfull research. While I dont think you were too lean at our normal summer riding temps, I do think there is some usefull knowlege eluding you with regard to temperature drops and exactly how much extra oxygen (as a percentage) is available at those temps, and how running lower octane levels can affect that both on and off nitrous.
Just so you know, I have called Dobeck Performance, who some might consider one of the best experts in terms of Air/Fuel that are around. I can only tell you that I feel very comfortable in what I have learned so far.
Originally posted by: 650VIPER
Marky, I run my wifes 14-1 bike on my mix. Thats half 110 and half 91. 12-1 is 91 octane safe at this altitude. Heck thats whats in Majors gixxer, and most bike motors. I have ran extensively more nitrous than him on that same piston, with the same mix, for a year. BUT, I have never ridden it on that cold of a day. So thats the only parameter that I dont personally know. I am glad his system checked out, that makes me feel better. I do know it comes down to Octane, temperature, and Fuel mixture. All of these I am sure had an effect on the cause, I just want to know the exact cause.
If I hide a problem with octane, it doesnt solve the problem, it masks it. If I hide the problem with more fuel, it doesnt solve the problem, is masks it. Until I am confindent in knowing what happened exactly, I wont feel confident in it. But I will find the problem.
As for Nate. He wont be down all summer, trust me!
Marky, I run my wifes 14-1 bike on my mix. Thats half 110 and half 91. 12-1 is 91 octane safe at this altitude. Heck thats whats in Majors gixxer, and most bike motors. I have ran extensively more nitrous than him on that same piston, with the same mix, for a year. BUT, I have never ridden it on that cold of a day. So thats the only parameter that I dont personally know. I am glad his system checked out, that makes me feel better. I do know it comes down to Octane, temperature, and Fuel mixture. All of these I am sure had an effect on the cause, I just want to know the exact cause.
If I hide a problem with octane, it doesnt solve the problem, it masks it. If I hide the problem with more fuel, it doesnt solve the problem, is masks it. Until I am confindent in knowing what happened exactly, I wont feel confident in it. But I will find the problem.
As for Nate. He wont be down all summer, trust me!
I'd be happy to give you some names of independant local builders who know about the temp changes and oxygen levels and how they affect A/F. I know its going to be difficult to hear it from me, considering the employer I work for. Perhaps some independant expertise will help clear the air. You might consider any one of many Oregon Builders who run into this temp issue all the time. Actually, its what keeps many of those guys busy in the winter months - rebuilding the ATVs that go lean in those cool months. I'll email you some telephone numbers tomorrow.
For sleds, its exactly the opposite. Many guys test and tune snowmobiles in temps lower than 0 degrees F. Then they try and ride in 35-40 degree weather in the early spring and they run rich- and the sleds act pretty doggy - well at least the carbed ones. The EFI ones have pressure and temp sensors to adjust for elevation and outside temp. Which is why those rarely have problems. I do believe that Major's Gixxer has EFI with those sensors on the intake.
As far as masking goes, I catch your drift. I honestly dont think anybody is doing any masking on here from a parts standpoint. I sincerely hope that you are considering the other quads, including Brindleys, that had issues - whether it be on or off of nitrous. All I ask is some thoughtfull research. While I dont think you were too lean at our normal summer riding temps, I do think there is some usefull knowlege eluding you with regard to temperature drops and exactly how much extra oxygen (as a percentage) is available at those temps, and how running lower octane levels can affect that both on and off nitrous.
Just so you know, I have called Dobeck Performance, who some might consider one of the best experts in terms of Air/Fuel that are around. I can only tell you that I feel very comfortable in what I have learned so far.
For instance, if I am set up for 80 degree weather on a thirty shot, if the temps drop below___degrees, I want to know that is too lean because niether the carb of system will compensate for it. Now if I am set up for 60 weather, I want to know how high in temps go before I need to lean it out. Then I want to know the bare minimum of octane needed to run said amount of nitrous. Thats knowledge that will keep me running, instead of hope.
If you got some info on the air density stuff, post it or call me, thats what I am after.
Crapo, thats great. Glad to hear she's running well. When you get time, check your piston and let us know what you come up with why she's blowing smoke will ya?
Jun 6, 2006 | 11:22 AM
#94
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
Here is another: Air Density and Density Altitude Calculations
Jun 6, 2006 | 11:24 AM
#95
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
Here is something from NASA which I thought was very interesting: Air Properties Definitions
Jun 6, 2006 | 11:29 AM
#96
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
Some more interesting information from actual motor heads: Air Density
Jun 6, 2006 | 11:55 AM
#98
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
The most significant site was this one ....
Density Altitude Calculator
Punch the numbers and see what you get. I got as much of a difference of 2472 feet in Density Altitude with a 40 degree change in temps.
Anybody want to tell me what the jetting change is for a drop in 2,472 feet in elevation?
Density Altitude Calculator
Punch the numbers and see what you get. I got as much of a difference of 2472 feet in Density Altitude with a 40 degree change in temps.
Anybody want to tell me what the jetting change is for a drop in 2,472 feet in elevation?
Jun 6, 2006 | 12:05 PM
#99
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
Here is another - this is probably the best yet .... Engine Tuner's Calculator
Jun 6, 2006 | 12:17 PM
#100
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Engine Problems. I need some thoughts.
I have been doing some studying on NOS since I am putting Boss on my DS. I don't think we will be seeing a shot bigger than a 30 on our DS motors that actually makes more power. It seems that there is an efficiency barrier. Once you have maximized how much overall air/fuel your motor can move, the amount of NOS you can add to that only adds power up to a certain percentage before it starts going the other way. Granted the motor is moving even more air/fuel when pushing NOS than it can normally aspirated but the efficiency barrier still remains.
Given the amount of air/fuel that can possibly move through a 650 - 850cc DS motor, I don't think you could ever run a 40 or 50 shot without finding another way to force more air/fuel through the motor and even then NOS wouldn't be the only contributer to a 40 or 50 hp gain.
Now if you were to take 350 chevy and run enough NOS to maximize the efficiency of the burn, you would easily make a 100 hp or possibly 150 hp shot without crossing that efficiency barrier because the big V8 moves so much air/fuel through itself.
The way I am looking at this efficiency barrier is exactly the same as the air/fuel ratio. You can only add so much fuel to the air before you start going the other way and losing power. If you don't have enough fuel, the more you add, the more power you make in most cases up to that efficiency barrier before your ratio of fuel cannot be optimally combusted.
I think if this were not true, NHRA would be using NOS instead of NM because you get much more power per ounce out of NOS. Only it has too low of an efficiency barrier. NM makes more power all the way up to 100%...........if you can make it hold together[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Given the amount of air/fuel that can possibly move through a 650 - 850cc DS motor, I don't think you could ever run a 40 or 50 shot without finding another way to force more air/fuel through the motor and even then NOS wouldn't be the only contributer to a 40 or 50 hp gain.
Now if you were to take 350 chevy and run enough NOS to maximize the efficiency of the burn, you would easily make a 100 hp or possibly 150 hp shot without crossing that efficiency barrier because the big V8 moves so much air/fuel through itself.
The way I am looking at this efficiency barrier is exactly the same as the air/fuel ratio. You can only add so much fuel to the air before you start going the other way and losing power. If you don't have enough fuel, the more you add, the more power you make in most cases up to that efficiency barrier before your ratio of fuel cannot be optimally combusted.
I think if this were not true, NHRA would be using NOS instead of NM because you get much more power per ounce out of NOS. Only it has too low of an efficiency barrier. NM makes more power all the way up to 100%...........if you can make it hold together[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
