St. Ann's casualty #2
#1
06-02-2006, 09:53 PM
St. Ann's casualty #2
A week later I am finally able to face tearing into my just built engine without wanting to f-in kill somethings. Today I got it tore apart to see what damage was done when I started puffing white smoke and sending oil out the exhaust about 15 min before 650Vipers did last Saturday at St. Ann's.
What a great ending to a very short weekend.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]
With my little experience in these matters the only obvious things I can see is some vertical wear on one side of the jug, which corespondes to a black area on the side of the piston. I can't see any obvious damage to the rings.
I posted a few pics in my bio, not sure if they are good enough quality to see anything that might help, hopefully I am going to get with Major soon to look em over.
The only bright spot is that I can get it tore down in under 2 hours now.
As far as what went wrong I can't say for sure, I've been pitched a few scenarios, none of which make complete sense to me, probably a combination of a few things.
One thing I now know for sure is that I am partially mentally retarded....thought I was running the perscribed 100 octane for my set-up by mixing 91 and 110 50/50.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img] Guess not.
From what others have said on Jeds post I was probably more like 96 its not linear right?
I was running colder plugs and I had jetted up to a 157.5 main from the weekend before at Little Sahara where I was running a little lean.
I am getting P/O again just talkin about it so thats all for know.
Any comments/suggestions appreciated.
N8
What a great ending to a very short weekend.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-disgusted.gif[/img]
With my little experience in these matters the only obvious things I can see is some vertical wear on one side of the jug, which corespondes to a black area on the side of the piston. I can't see any obvious damage to the rings.
I posted a few pics in my bio, not sure if they are good enough quality to see anything that might help, hopefully I am going to get with Major soon to look em over.
The only bright spot is that I can get it tore down in under 2 hours now.
As far as what went wrong I can't say for sure, I've been pitched a few scenarios, none of which make complete sense to me, probably a combination of a few things.
One thing I now know for sure is that I am partially mentally retarded....thought I was running the perscribed 100 octane for my set-up by mixing 91 and 110 50/50.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img] Guess not.
From what others have said on Jeds post I was probably more like 96 its not linear right?
I was running colder plugs and I had jetted up to a 157.5 main from the weekend before at Little Sahara where I was running a little lean.
I am getting P/O again just talkin about it so thats all for know.
Any comments/suggestions appreciated.
N8
#2
06-02-2006, 10:42 PM
St. Ann's casualty #2
Nate we ran the mix on both our motors last year with no issues. You are still running a 20 shot right? I dont think fuel is the issue. Take a look at the exhaust side of the piston. Look at the upper ring. From the side is the upper land lifted up, or is the land below it titled down?
#3
06-02-2006, 11:15 PM
St. Ann's casualty #2
Originally posted by: 650VIPER
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#5
06-03-2006, 09:01 AM
St. Ann's casualty #2
Oh man this sucks Nate. out of 3 bikes I saw with NOS at the mountain last week, all 3 have bit the dust since I met you guys there. my gut is sinking, I feel for you guys.
only thing that comes to my mind is wondering what ring gap you guys used? I'm no nos expert, never ran it, don't really have any other ideas.
I ran a mix of 2/3 110 and 1/3 90 all week in Utah with my 14:1 piston, wanting 101 octane and ering to the high side due to the math not being linear as mentioned. But Nate I think you were higher than 96 with your mix, I came across a chart on a fuel company website one time a while back, it was a big chart like showed what mixes equal what in reality, and the difference between it and our easy mix math was very small, I mean the difference was practically negligable. I will see if I can find this chart again, cause the difference was so slight that I didn't bother retaining it, I figured I'd just do the easy math and er a point or two to the high side and be done with it.
only thing that comes to my mind is wondering what ring gap you guys used? I'm no nos expert, never ran it, don't really have any other ideas.
I ran a mix of 2/3 110 and 1/3 90 all week in Utah with my 14:1 piston, wanting 101 octane and ering to the high side due to the math not being linear as mentioned. But Nate I think you were higher than 96 with your mix, I came across a chart on a fuel company website one time a while back, it was a big chart like showed what mixes equal what in reality, and the difference between it and our easy mix math was very small, I mean the difference was practically negligable. I will see if I can find this chart again, cause the difference was so slight that I didn't bother retaining it, I figured I'd just do the easy math and er a point or two to the high side and be done with it.
#6
06-03-2006, 11:25 AM
St. Ann's casualty #2
Nate,
I know I already mentioned this, but I don’t believe you had near enough octane to satisfy the compression requirements. I ran NOSS with no problems on a 25 shot, with 12:1 with VP C12. Being lean IS a precursor to Detonation or pre-ignition. You can also have detonation if your ignition timing is too advanced. If you don’t have any ring issues as Jed mentioned, you have a lean condition. Being too lean, the motor will suddenly have a boost of power. In your situation, when you run NOSS in a lean carb environment, you will wash the cylinder wall, and have wear there.
VP Leaded Fuel Facts - right from their literature.... Most expensive to least expensive
C12 - For compression ratios below 15:1. Motor Octane : 108
VP 110 - for compression ratios up to 14:1. Motor Octane: 107
VP RED - From compression ratios up to 13:1. Motor Octane: 105
I think its a good time to remember that the only difference between the week before at Little Sahara as well as the first three days of Saint Anthony to the last two days at Saint Anthony was ..... a 40 degree drop in temp. The logic here is undeniable.
The part that is strange to me is the amount of oil I saw on your spark plug as well as on the inside of your exhaust. The fact that you can only see some vertical wear on your cylinder wall does not match with the amount of oil I saw - perhaps there is more wear there? I didnt see any white smoke, no any signs of water in your oil. So, I dont think we have a head gasket issue.
Jed had a good point, check your ring lands for issues there, that might be where all the oil is coming from.
I know I already mentioned this, but I don’t believe you had near enough octane to satisfy the compression requirements. I ran NOSS with no problems on a 25 shot, with 12:1 with VP C12. Being lean IS a precursor to Detonation or pre-ignition. You can also have detonation if your ignition timing is too advanced. If you don’t have any ring issues as Jed mentioned, you have a lean condition. Being too lean, the motor will suddenly have a boost of power. In your situation, when you run NOSS in a lean carb environment, you will wash the cylinder wall, and have wear there.
VP Leaded Fuel Facts - right from their literature.... Most expensive to least expensive
C12 - For compression ratios below 15:1. Motor Octane : 108
VP 110 - for compression ratios up to 14:1. Motor Octane: 107
VP RED - From compression ratios up to 13:1. Motor Octane: 105
I think its a good time to remember that the only difference between the week before at Little Sahara as well as the first three days of Saint Anthony to the last two days at Saint Anthony was ..... a 40 degree drop in temp. The logic here is undeniable.
The part that is strange to me is the amount of oil I saw on your spark plug as well as on the inside of your exhaust. The fact that you can only see some vertical wear on your cylinder wall does not match with the amount of oil I saw - perhaps there is more wear there? I didnt see any white smoke, no any signs of water in your oil. So, I dont think we have a head gasket issue.
Jed had a good point, check your ring lands for issues there, that might be where all the oil is coming from.
#7
06-03-2006, 12:05 PM
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#8
06-03-2006, 02:09 PM
St. Ann's casualty #2
Turned it upside down, and every which way, dont see any signs of cracking or holes, but now that I look at it:
the vertical scoring on the jug also matches up with some on the piston skirt. It starts below the bottom ring land, no wear above that[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
Seems like a ring problem? but I cannot see any damage to them [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]
the vertical scoring on the jug also matches up with some on the piston skirt. It starts below the bottom ring land, no wear above that[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]
Seems like a ring problem? but I cannot see any damage to them [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-frown.gif[/img]