So much for this guy getting good solid info.

Yea, I've spent money on just about every type of build there is..... and guess what, I do my own builds and several other peoples. Getting parts from everyone under the sun is dangerous to say the least. Lets take a head for example. Let's say we are putting bigger valves in and doing some port work. The company only knows that they are doing the head work and not really worrying about who is supplying the other parts. They happen to install the valve seat a little shallow. No big deal, but then you go and get a piston off ebay that is at or around 13.5:1. Then the cams come in from yet another company and the lift is a little longer than the head guy thought it would be, or the piston has got a huge dome, two large for the lift of the cam (especially on the valve that is seated too shallow).... Then you buy a head gasket from a company thinking that one size fits all, and not really knowing that while the head was away at the "Head Guy" they took a little off to make sure that the head was straight.

Saturday morning comes and you are getting ready to do the quick little build. You've never really clayed a motor before, and believe that it should be an install that goes by the numbers. Taking the time to install the motor in the sled, then dumping another $40.00 in fluids in, you strike the match getting ready for that big smile to come up. You hear a little ticking sound but put it off as a new sound and something that will soon work itself out as oil gets to the places it needs to get. All the while your piston is striking the shallow valve. You take it out for a ride and 20 seconds later you grenade the motor. Now instead of saving $225 buying parts from 5 people, you're now into a case, jug, head, trans etc. etc. Now the build that was going to be the next best thing making the unprecidented power that others claim is now nothing more than aluminum mixed with a little steel.

The next Monday morning you go to the company the built the head and tell them your motor grenaded, and you're looking for some help. Of course they tell you to go to the piston people, and the piston people tell you to go to the guy on ebay and ask for your money back. The piston buy says that your build was flawed in other places and that a piston that he's sold 200 units of is not the problem. Then you go to the cam guy and he says, hey... it was your spec, and your job to make sure everything should fit properly. They ask you if you clayed the motor, and you say huh?

There is more to building a reliable motor than slapping parts together. There is more to buying parts than looking for the cheapest way out. There is more to giving advice than telling what you "should" do.

Bottom line is that this build, like all others has to be done correctly and by the numbers. Go outside the lines and you'll pay the price. If you want only to throw a piston in.... easy, and cheap. But if real head work is needed, real power is needed and reliability is first and foremost..... there aint no way around $$$. That is of course unless you are independently wealthy and have a CNC machine, Casting Machine, Lathe etc. etc. or simply have all these services on retainer.

Just aint that easy boys.

On a side note, why is there all of a sudden so much negativity on this site? Seems to me that it all stems around a couple of people. Not sure why they are allowed to continue... I'm am sure that the moderators are watching all of this very closely.

Whether it be one manufacturer or another, one builder or another, one part or another.... give the guy a little advice, keep your personal and emotional baggage out of it and lets see if we cant give him some good info.

My .02

 

Great INFO!!! Been there done that several times... Very sound advise from any atv motor build standpoint. I think alot of people should read this info, it might save some $$ in the long run. We get back to the importance of experience of a builder/assembler.

 

Bigdaddy,

As far as the motor work is concerned, I think your observations are right on when it comes to 'on the edge performance', but for a 3K build, perhaps it may not always apply as directly - thats just my personal observation. However, I'll give you this - even 3K builds can be on the edge - and there may be a time when you want a single builder to put them altogether for you. There are builders that are hardly ever mentioned lon this forum that deal with all of these parts from the various companies that have incredible experience in understanding them all and how they interact together.

As far as the forum is concerned, It's been a negative place to be for a long time, especially the last month, even more the last few weeks. The peeps simply couldnt get thier differences worked out and I guess someone had to step in. Its sad, because now everyone is under a microscope, and we have those forum members to thank for that. Its happened before in the past, and eventually things will settle down and it will be a nice place to visit again. Until then, we get the joy of testing the waters again everytime we post, and we will eventually realize that posting without personal attacks is actually an easy thing to do. The people that find it hard are the few that were involved in that mess.

Its time for guys like you and me to step up and start posting. The sooner the better.

Marky

 

I agree with Big dDaddy on this, but then again if your going to build a custom motor do your research, ask questions, and re ask them again, Im hoping if your putting a cam in you ask the MFG about set up, if your having your head done by someone go over and over all the specs of the cam being used and all SPECIAL clearance and spring tensions, shims required for trouble free build (even BigDaddy had an Opps with a head that he posted on the forum, where all human) and I also agree with working with someone that has buildt and assembled DS motors for play and race and has that articulation for looking at the little things that can make the build reliable.
Its not that its all about money its about the time you put in to the project, and the end result is to have a reliable strong running motor for years of enjoyment.

 

ERBEDS650,

Do you think its possible, by people sharing knowlege, that they could actually do the same job or better than the builders/assemblers that are out there? If so, would there be a need for people to gather and share this information?

Marky

 

ERBEDS650,

Do you think its possible, by people sharing knowlege, that they could actually do the same job or better than the builders/assemblers that are out there? If so, would there be a need for people to gather and share this information?

Marky

Marky Come on? what I was saying by researching and asking questions you get ideals, and ideals are the basis where design and R/D begin, I think by sharing information with other builders new concepts acure.
I was just stating building an average DS, now a racing DS a builder has to have there own VODOO to add to the motor to get an edge.

 

Mark and I have had open discussions on this board. We may not agree with everything each other says or does. But he is absolutely right when he says that certain people must step up to make this a better board. I also agree that it's been real bad for the last month or two. I don't know what it's going to take to make it better, nor do I know why it's going south so fast. This used to be a great place to learn, teach and share - not so much anymore.

Erbed, the sample that I posted was not directed towards anything or anyone in particualr but simply to give an example of what could happen. You are absolutely right when you speak of my ordeal. As much as I communicated, with HPR... there was still an oversite. Catastrophic!!!!! If, as DS family, we can help someone NOT go down that road... we've done our job. Reguardless of builder, machinist, retailer etc. etc. This is where we need to focus our aim. The better we are at that, the more our DS family will grow. The more we grow, the more manufactures will come. There is enough business for everyone. We need to be straight first and foremost.

 

As my Dad used to say, Well did you learn anything from your mistake? Good then it wont happen again. (I think I was 6 with a penny and a wall socket)

 

ERBEDS650,

My question was simply to clarify your post. Thank you. There is no secret agenda at all, just trying to get so an understanding of it. By the way, I agree 100%

Marky

 

Bigdaddy,

I've been thinking a lot about this particular BRP forum for a while. I do visit other forums, but I've always called this one my home. It is true that we dont always agree. Jed and I dont always agree either and we have a great friendship and I enjoy riding with him and talking with him. Thats true with a lot of folks that are local to me.

The forum has gradually taken on different personalities over the years. It used to be a place where people would share part or most of thier knowlege on what combinations work best: sort of a home mechanic's forum for anything from maintenance to performance. Lately, posts about builders have taken quite a bit of the subject matter. The result has been a lot less posts and information of what seems to work well as discovered by members, even to the point of other people, who favor 'builder only' designs, discounting (probably the most polite word to use) posts that share information. Further, sharing information may even reduce the ability to gain the parts needed to complete a build. One thing is for sure, I could not post what I have in the last 2 weeks if I had a DS and I wanted parts in the future. To me, that seems unAmerican, and more like a monopoly.

Some of the people that have joined the forum within the last year, probably havent seen the way a good forum can operate when really good home mechanics share this information. So, its probably hard for those very active members to understand how a forum could be. There have been a lot of good products actually created right here, only to be later discounted because a certain builder doesnt carry it. Thats just one example without getting too specific. I remember a time when head porting techniques and other specifications in the valve train where openly shared so that people could do it themselves. Not so much anymore - In fact, some of the most heated debates evolved around those items. These posts included exhaust components, ignition, and pistons just to name a few. The results have been fewer products created by fewer companies and only 2 builders of any significance mentioned on this forum. Not to mention the price increase.

There will always be the need for builders to do the job they do. Im not sure thats the only way however. Forums were practically made for the 'do it yourselfer', AND as a place to find contact information thats objective and complete. Also, it should be a place where new ideas are created simply by reading and understanding the needs of fellow riders.

Im not going to tell everyone that this forum will ever be drama free. But wouldnt it be nice to have more than two choices? If so, I wonder how forum members think this could be done?

Marky