Can-Am 450...
#21
10-05-2006, 04:07 PM
Can-Am 450...
Originally posted by: TPR
After reading more about the Aprilla V-Twin 450, I uncovered a couple of things. First, the motor itself cost about 5% more to build than a 450 single. They did not give out specific weight for the motor but the bike's overall weight is 35 lbs heavier than the heaviest of the big 5, (Suz, Kaw, Yam, Hon, KTM) so that could be some added motor weight and structural weight. They did say that the motor had a low cg, which made helped the handling of the motorcycle.
Now the power was estimated at 60 HP in MX trim which is real good, but we know that this get's changed when you apply it to a quad. So figure in the power loss and then potential gain with intake and exhaust work.
What most don't understand is that while compact for a V-twin, the motor/tranny is takes up nearly the same overall space as a DS 650, which may cause packaging concerns.
The other aspect that I read was that the SX and MX series has outlawed multicylinder engines in the 450 class. If this were to spill over to the ATVA and WPSA events, the v-twin would be out of the question.
Remember, Can-Am/BRP has, we assume, been working on a 450 class quad for some time now. (Most estimates are that it takes about 3-4 years to bring one to market, closer to 4 if you are building a motor from the ground up.
Take that for what it's worth, but I think that given the landscape of the 450 market, it will be like their MX cousins...you could nearly interchange plastics from year to year and notice only subtle differences. They may get a little more power here, a little more travel there, and a couple of lbs off on that, but once this and the proposed KTM/Polaris 450 hits, it will then be a game of refinement,
10 years from now, you will probably see a 325lb 450 that easily makes 65hp in stock trim.
Now DS lovers may hate this, but I like this thought....replace the DS, with a lighter DS with the Aprilla 550 version of the same V-Twin...now we are talking!!! It makes 70HP in stock trim, and has a power delivery that would be ideal in the environments most people use the DS in, desert and dunes. You could keep the dimensions of the DS similar....maybe a hair smaller and much lighter....then Can-Am can soak up all those Yamaha guys with the Banshee hangover.
I have heard nothing of the above statement, that is my fanciful speculation, but that 550 then could go head to head with the 525 Outlaw and 700 Rappy and make more power than both!!! Bring it in at 400 lbs....game over!!
TPR
After reading more about the Aprilla V-Twin 450, I uncovered a couple of things. First, the motor itself cost about 5% more to build than a 450 single. They did not give out specific weight for the motor but the bike's overall weight is 35 lbs heavier than the heaviest of the big 5, (Suz, Kaw, Yam, Hon, KTM) so that could be some added motor weight and structural weight. They did say that the motor had a low cg, which made helped the handling of the motorcycle.
Now the power was estimated at 60 HP in MX trim which is real good, but we know that this get's changed when you apply it to a quad. So figure in the power loss and then potential gain with intake and exhaust work.
What most don't understand is that while compact for a V-twin, the motor/tranny is takes up nearly the same overall space as a DS 650, which may cause packaging concerns.
The other aspect that I read was that the SX and MX series has outlawed multicylinder engines in the 450 class. If this were to spill over to the ATVA and WPSA events, the v-twin would be out of the question.
Remember, Can-Am/BRP has, we assume, been working on a 450 class quad for some time now. (Most estimates are that it takes about 3-4 years to bring one to market, closer to 4 if you are building a motor from the ground up.
Take that for what it's worth, but I think that given the landscape of the 450 market, it will be like their MX cousins...you could nearly interchange plastics from year to year and notice only subtle differences. They may get a little more power here, a little more travel there, and a couple of lbs off on that, but once this and the proposed KTM/Polaris 450 hits, it will then be a game of refinement,
10 years from now, you will probably see a 325lb 450 that easily makes 65hp in stock trim.
Now DS lovers may hate this, but I like this thought....replace the DS, with a lighter DS with the Aprilla 550 version of the same V-Twin...now we are talking!!! It makes 70HP in stock trim, and has a power delivery that would be ideal in the environments most people use the DS in, desert and dunes. You could keep the dimensions of the DS similar....maybe a hair smaller and much lighter....then Can-Am can soak up all those Yamaha guys with the Banshee hangover.
I have heard nothing of the above statement, that is my fanciful speculation, but that 550 then could go head to head with the 525 Outlaw and 700 Rappy and make more power than both!!! Bring it in at 400 lbs....game over!!
TPR
or how about the DS with the 800 v twin???
#22
10-05-2006, 04:10 PM
Can-Am 450...
Originally posted by: TPR
The other aspect that I read was that the SX and MX series has outlawed multicylinder engines in the 450 class. If this were to spill over to the ATVA and WPSA events, the v-twin would be out of the question. TPR
The other aspect that I read was that the SX and MX series has outlawed multicylinder engines in the 450 class. If this were to spill over to the ATVA and WPSA events, the v-twin would be out of the question. TPR
Does anyone know if Can-Am has any connections with Aprilla anyways?
#23
10-05-2006, 06:28 PM
Can-Am 450...
Originally posted by: motox26
Does anyone know if Can-Am has any connections with Aprilla anyways?
Does anyone know if Can-Am has any connections with Aprilla anyways?
#24
10-05-2006, 09:03 PM
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Can-Am 450...
As I understand Rotax helped in the development of the 4.5 and 5.5 motors.
Learnem....The 800 would be awesome if they could put a manual gearbox on it....
Problem now is they wouldn't want the competition for the Renegade....
So make a Can-Am DS 5.5v2, make sure it's got 12" of couch suspension on a lower chassis, maybe make it a full 50" and land that sucker at about 400lbs and you will meet your target competition with more suspension and more hp... As I said before...Game Over for the Rappy and Outlaw....
Or we can call the new DS....the Bandito as a nod to our friends down south that would be building it!!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Ok Can-Am...you may as well hire me to be a new product consultant![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
TPR
Learnem....The 800 would be awesome if they could put a manual gearbox on it....
Problem now is they wouldn't want the competition for the Renegade....
So make a Can-Am DS 5.5v2, make sure it's got 12" of couch suspension on a lower chassis, maybe make it a full 50" and land that sucker at about 400lbs and you will meet your target competition with more suspension and more hp... As I said before...Game Over for the Rappy and Outlaw....
Or we can call the new DS....the Bandito as a nod to our friends down south that would be building it!!![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
Ok Can-Am...you may as well hire me to be a new product consultant![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
TPR
#25
10-06-2006, 12:55 AM
Can-Am 450...
i have read some assumptions about the aprilla 4.5 and 5.5 on several atv sights.what i herefolks sayis they are a high reving ,gotta wind it out motor to make power. now if you go ask the guys that ride them in super moto,about the only place that allows them to race, in the open class only as well, they say the motor has good low end and RUN THE BEST IN THE MID RANGE. they turn better lap times letting the motor work then reving the crap out of it.the engine weighs 70lbs. most stock 5.5 dyno around 60-65 hp,pipe and power comander up to 75hp
a 5.5 crate motor runs around 3200.00 and all the wiring,throttle bodys.eletrical.ecu ect to make it run is another 2g
internal parts are not anymore $$$$ then honda or yamaha 450's.
there will be a 5.5 in a light weight custom chassis hill shooter based out of st.anthony next spring,goal weight is around 225lbs,motor should be delivered next week.
aprilla's big v-twins are ktm motors
as for the can-am 450
forget trying to build a competitve race quad for +200 lbs guys,lol
bring the heat to the other manufactures with the 450 and build your faithfull a comfy 400lb bigbore to work with,allthough a twin screamer dune quad would be nice.if yamaha builds a quad based of the twin 500 in the phazer i think it will ussure in a new erea,unless someone else beats them to the punch.
a 5.5 crate motor runs around 3200.00 and all the wiring,throttle bodys.eletrical.ecu ect to make it run is another 2g
internal parts are not anymore $$$$ then honda or yamaha 450's.
there will be a 5.5 in a light weight custom chassis hill shooter based out of st.anthony next spring,goal weight is around 225lbs,motor should be delivered next week.
aprilla's big v-twins are ktm motors
as for the can-am 450
forget trying to build a competitve race quad for +200 lbs guys,lol
bring the heat to the other manufactures with the 450 and build your faithfull a comfy 400lb bigbore to work with,allthough a twin screamer dune quad would be nice.if yamaha builds a quad based of the twin 500 in the phazer i think it will ussure in a new erea,unless someone else beats them to the punch.
#26
10-06-2006, 12:54 PM
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Can-Am 450...
That hill shooter sounds awesome!!
What I found for the guys that are racing these is that they say the bottom end is ok, midrange is good and the top end is awesome. Most regear to help move the power down a bit in the RPM range.
These motors actually work better on the supermoto bikes because at least on the street portion, they are able to better put the power to the ground.
That may mean it would work for a quad with the added traction and weight, better than the bike in dirt because it has been documented that the power is abrupt to the point of not being able to put all the power down.
That's why I made the suggestion of lowering the weight on a redsigned DS package with the 5.5 motor around the 400lb range.
I still contend that they have a 450 single on the horizon, not only to compete in the 450 Production class in the ATVA and WPSA events, but also to make a return to motocross...It would be a natural evolution back to the original Can-Am specialty. If that is their goal, then a twin is already out of the question, and since the big 5 pushed to outlaw twins in the MX and SX series, there is nothing stopping them from doing the same here in ATVA and WPSA, since we know that at least Suzuki and to a lesser extent Honda and Yamaha now have active rolls and Factory Teams there as well.
TPR
What I found for the guys that are racing these is that they say the bottom end is ok, midrange is good and the top end is awesome. Most regear to help move the power down a bit in the RPM range.
These motors actually work better on the supermoto bikes because at least on the street portion, they are able to better put the power to the ground.
That may mean it would work for a quad with the added traction and weight, better than the bike in dirt because it has been documented that the power is abrupt to the point of not being able to put all the power down.
That's why I made the suggestion of lowering the weight on a redsigned DS package with the 5.5 motor around the 400lb range.
I still contend that they have a 450 single on the horizon, not only to compete in the 450 Production class in the ATVA and WPSA events, but also to make a return to motocross...It would be a natural evolution back to the original Can-Am specialty. If that is their goal, then a twin is already out of the question, and since the big 5 pushed to outlaw twins in the MX and SX series, there is nothing stopping them from doing the same here in ATVA and WPSA, since we know that at least Suzuki and to a lesser extent Honda and Yamaha now have active rolls and Factory Teams there as well.
TPR
#27
10-08-2006, 03:22 PM
Can-Am 450...
Motor type; I'd like to see a 450cc twin cylinder TWO STROKE semi-direct injection with RER electronic reverse.
Intake type; Injected.
Frame material; Aluminum would be great,but with the lightweight 90 plus horsepower two stroke, steel is okay.
Suspension set-up; Independent all four corners. Gives you more ground clearance(trail riding)
Shocks; Fox Float. They are air charged and don't utilize coil springs.
Dimension; Same as the DS 650[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
Intake type; Injected.
Frame material; Aluminum would be great,but with the lightweight 90 plus horsepower two stroke, steel is okay.
Suspension set-up; Independent all four corners. Gives you more ground clearance(trail riding)
Shocks; Fox Float. They are air charged and don't utilize coil springs.
Dimension; Same as the DS 650[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
#29
10-25-2006, 02:09 AM
Can-Am 450...
heres a pic of the 5.5 aprilla....it weighs 71lbs like you see it and is way smaller and lighter than a ds or raptor motor
just thought youd like to see it http://www.theatvcompound.com/forums...e=post&id=9855
just thought youd like to see it http://www.theatvcompound.com/forums...e=post&id=9855
