Thor2-You have a source to back that up?? I have read a bunch of times that ATV's outsell everything else combined!! (But, I'm not going to look through all my old magazines just to prove it to you.) Anybody else out there have any info. Honda sold 70,000 Ranchers alone in 02!!

 

ATVs and Mule/Ranger's outsell all motorcycles combined. True dat.

 

All types of ATV’s combined into one total number may out sell dirt bikes, but there is no way ATV’s out sell motorcycles (Street, Race, Dirt, MX, ext,)
Its hard to find a garage without a bike of some sort in it.

 

you actually think that honda will try to save their money and put the cheapest parts on the CRF450R derived engine. well i have to say that you are being totally biased. look at the budget of honda and then yamaha. honda makes more than twice the money yamaha does anually and they also have a bigger r&d department. so their has to be a good reason for honda to use them parts. by the way titanium valves and steel valves are just about the same. their isn't even 1/4 horsepower difference. so you can stop talking trash about the 450r. how the h#ll do you know that honda didn't use the same parts for the valve train. do you work for honda and know everything they do. no and you can stop being an a$$ about it to.

 

Your correct on this (the parts not quoted too) and sooner or later, prob later the factories will have to turn around to where the $$$ are, but till then were not much more than a bunch of red headed step children.


Understood, but like many others I think I would only end up with the FCR in the end anyhow, and it would be easier if it was there stk.

Damn Gabe we think too much alike, and this was exactly the same thing I was thinking as soon as I saw the specs on the longer stroke. I know in a later post there is a comment about needing the 470cc etc but only time will tell for sure.

No need to get into the other points and counter points since the only one that really makes any damn difference is the linkage set up and if the design corrects the "kick" that the 400EX has then its a winner.

I have to agree with who ever said that not many have stk machines anyway and how so much of the yzf-crf comparisons being discussed is a total waste of time. There is no way that any of this debating is going to mean anything on the race track (mx or xc or ??) since in a few months none of the machines will be stock anyway.

Now how I really see it all is that if I was a damn atv magazine reporter/editor and was comparing machines by spec only and how that should relate to performance in both these quads in total stk form then I think there may be a slight advantage in favor of the YFZ, but since I am not a magazine editor etc and would never pretend to be thinking on leaving either of these quads in stock form this advantage doesnt mean @#%$. For the guy who is having to get the newest bestest performance quad and then just use it for trail riding in stock form this BS may mean something but for the rest of us who will not allow ourselves to be beat up and beaten etc by a stock machine would be changing most of the parts on either of these quads.

Knowing this and realizing that both would require full suspension, intake, exhaust, controls and internal engine mods to be competitive or perform to a level thats expected etc. you have to agree that all the little things that made the stock comparison lean towards the YFZ are now nothing but junk in a box in the back of the garage. That said it will be some time before we can call a champion and it is anyones guess at this time.

I have to admit I was expecting more from Honda than the current info avail shows, but beyond being "ugly" I am not having many complaints. Sure EFI or the al frame that were rumored would have been trick but all I was seriously looking for was liquid cooling, improved rear swing arm set up and more power "potential". The three problems I have with the EX fixed, and they delivered that. So maybe I am more satisfied with this machine than I thought but when the time comes it will deff be getting a new hood as this has to be the frickin ugliest front end I have seen, but maybe it just reminds me of the other newer ugly style.

Sorry for the sermon. and bring on the 470cc stroker [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

If anyone is disatisfied with Honda's past, present, or future offerings, the remedy is simpler than they think. Spend your money elsewhere.



I get a real kick out of these knowitalls that heard in sixth grade study hall that Honda is offering up a new racer that is nothing but pure junk, then come here and try to get thousands of ATV enthusiasts to jump on their anger bandwagon. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple as that.

 

The reason I can relate to what this guy is saying is if I ask myself these questions:

Would I rather have the high performance FCR Carb? Yes. Save me $500 bucks later.
Would I rather have electric start and still 350 Lbs? Yes. Why not?
Would I rather have more suspension travel? Yes always.
Would I rather have titanium valves? Yes even though some say there is no advantage.

Then I notice they put the same tires on this that are on the Raptor. These don't seem to be the hot ticket for GNCC or any other type of racing.

I have to agree with others that the styling is one of the worst looking things I have ever seen.

And finally I was holding out a little hope because I heard they were offering a $300 performance kit but that turned out to be a huge disappointment also because it is only a cam shaft and some jets. (Everything else in the kit is useless)

I guess Quadfather is right the only thing left to do is buy something else. I just made up my mind. I am going to buy the Yamaha YFZ450. It just has to much more to offer. Dollar for dollar I think the Yamaha will be so much cheaper and still offer more performance.
Sorry Honda to much of a disappointment to ignore.

 

Would I rather have the high performance FCR Carb? Yes. Save me $500 bucks later.

Actually a little over $300 for an OEM Honda FCR carb. Less if you consider you can sell the 42mm stock carb.

Hard to say how "bad" the 42mm stock carb will be. It might be surprisingly good - it might not, time will tell.


Would I rather have electric start and still 350 Lbs? Yes. Why not?

This is an "advantage" we can't qualify yet -- I haven't personally weighed the YFZ, but from what I've been told, it's real weight is far higher than the "claimed" 350lbs. We don't yet know how close the Honda will be to it's "claimed" weight.

We know for a fact the YFZ engine is no lighter than a CRF engine. Frame construction and materials are similar, so where is Yamaha saving weight? Makes a person wonder....

Would I rather have more suspension travel? Yes always.

Again, we don't yet know whether the published specs are true to life. Even if so, Action is more important than the absloute numbers. I've measured actual travel before and found that manufacturer specs are again, not always true to what they publish.

You're pretty naive if you believe that the published numbers are 100% legit and useful for absolute comparisons. Differences in the way things are measured, the marketing dept, deceptive practices, and any of a number of other untold practices can all skew the numbers and make them only useful for establishing a very rough baseline.


Would I rather have titanium valves? Yes even though some say there is no advantage.

Titanium valves do have an advantage - they are lighter. They also have disadvantages, especially when used on the exhaust side - they don't handle high temps well.


Then I notice they put the same tires on this that are on the Raptor. These don't seem to be the hot ticket for GNCC or any other type of racing.

And the stock tires on the YFZ are the "hot ticket" in GNCC or any other type of racing?

Here's a hint - the tires aren't the Raptor's problem.


I have to agree with others that the styling is one of the worst looking things I have ever seen.

Purely subjective. I have to wonder if your obvious bias toward the YFZ is clouding your perception of the styling.


And finally I was holding out a little hope because I heard they were offering a $300 performance kit but that turned out to be a huge disappointment also because it is only a cam shaft and some jets. (Everything else in the kit is useless).

Accessories offered by the manufacturer are never the best value. The value in the manufacturers kit is the jetting for the accessories involved should be very close.

I also have to disagree with the airbox and exhaust being "useless". We don't know the design of the silencer yet, the tip may open the system up significantly, hard to say at this point. On a 400EX, that tip would be useless because of the internal design of the silencer - my guess is since they are offering this, the internal design of this silencer is much different.

The factory vented airbox will also likely be nice. It will likely have baffling that will prevent water/mud from being able to come in direct contact with the filter. Cutting a hole, like many do exposes the filter to the elements - not good for engine longevity.

I guess Quadfather is right the only thing left to do is buy something else. I just made up my mind. I am going to buy the Yamaha YFZ450. It just has to much more to offer. Dollar for dollar I think the Yamaha will be so much cheaper and still offer more performance.

Sounds to me like you "made up your mind" a long time ago. I'm guessing long before the new Honda was even announced. Many of us have different reasons for the quads we've chosen and will choose in the future - I find it very difficult to believe that either the Honda or the YFZ will be a poor decision for someone wanting a competitive 450 class machine.

The great thing is that we DO have a choice now. Five short years ago our only choice was which color of Banshee we wanted.

 

When I imagine Gabe typing his responses, I see him in some superhero's outfit with a mask and a cape, fighting the injustices being performed by all the Yamaha super-villians.

Look up at the keyboard. Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's HHHhhhhoooooooonndaaaaaa MMMMmmmmmaaaaann!!! who disguised as Gabe, a mild mannered I.T. guy from the great state of Missouri, fights a never ending battle for truth, justice and the Big Red way.

Dude, you should have been a Lawyer. And like you said before, if more people think like trx11 and go buy a YFZ then it will be easier for those of us who want a 450R to get one at a good price and not have to wait too long.