Now we're getting somewhere lol !!......... pure premium synthetic is a better quality oil (nobody can dispute that). The point of contention was that honda doesn't recommend synthetics-- which boils down to the fact that there is moly in most of them and several have newer than SG API. However, there are some synthetics (such as the Amsoil AFF 0w40) which do not contain moly, and also appears to satisfy honda requirements for honda atv's in all categories, even though honda won't come right out and endorse it for use (everybody wants to sell you their own products--it's business after all). Can someone look at this Amsoil link and point out anything that doesn't meet or beat honda atv requirements? (and i am not being a smart a$$, just trying to learn here). The only thing i can see is the API SJ along with the SG..... not sure if that is a good thing or not.

AMSOIL AFF 0w40

btw, having no friction modifiers means no moly, right?

Where i live in Manitoba unfortunately it does get to -30 at times, and dang it that seems to be when the driveway blows full of snow.

 

Yep, itll work.
I usually use the 10w 40, in motorcycles and atvs, because sometimes i let the oil change go for a year, and 10w 40 is better in the summer. They both let the motor spin over easy when cold.

 

Hondabuster-"The reason Honda doesnt recommend their synthetic for wet clutches, isnt because its synthetic. Its because there is moly in it."

WELL, WE CAN'T BLAME THIS ONE ON MOLY! Sorry bud, but HONDA SYNTH BLEND HP4 <u>DOES NOT</u> CONTAIN MOLY! Open this link http://www.thumperfaq.com/oil.htm, and look at the picture of the 3 bottles. If you read the (gold) one on the left, its hard to read but it says "without moly".

[The silver bottle on the right is HP4M, which DOES contain moly. It is a JASO MB oil. It's only application is in the engine (not transmission) of the 450R and CRF450/250, which have a split case with its transmission seperate from the engine. Don't use it in any other machine!]

My guess is that HP4 blend is just GN4 dino oil with some synthetic added. So, the logical conclusion is that the only reason you can't use HP4 with an autoclutch is the synthetic. I don't know why Honda doesn't just clarify this matter, but rather they leave it for the customer to connect the dots and figure it out for ourselves.

dragon-If you don't want to pay Honda for oil, they probably won't miss your money, because you will be paying them for clutch plates later on. Either way, they win.

 

You got any direct proof of this? Or is this just your opinion? You seem to have some pretty strong opinions that are based only on what some underpaid tech writer put in an owner's manual (probably at the behest of the marketing dept). And it's not even backed up by the info on Honda's website.

Dragon - Amsoil guarantees that if their lubes cause damage in an application that they say it's ok to use it in, they will pay for the repairs.

 

You guys run what you want but I'm with reconranger on this one! I started out running car oil in my Ozark (it has an auto clutch), thats a NO NO! Then I switched to a synthetic blend and it was harder to shift so again another NO NO! If you don't want to use Honda oil, there are MANY 4 stroke motorcycle oils available and if you have an auto clutch you need to be using the Dino. I use Mobil 1 MX4T (full synthetic)in the 400EX cause its made for 4 stroke motorcycle engines and NOT autos like the "red cap" stuff. Unlike reconranger, I won't argue with you cause I only got to pay for MY bikes..............[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

 

It will be an interesting experiment, at dragons expense. He may get away with it. I ran HP4M in my 400's for a while, with no ill effects, yet.

 

Im trying to find where, it states, "do not use synthetic oil in hondas".
Ive been to their website, notta
Looked in my owners manual(actually all three, all different hondas)....notta
Three factory service manuals. notta
If honda doesnt want me using synthetic oil, I havent found that out from honda.
Oil is oil. If it says its SG, then it has to meet certain minimum standards, called out in engineering documents. Some oils may have other chemicals added, which may or may not hurt anything. But they all have to meet a minimum standard to be called SG oil.
My sevice manual states "Honda gn4 4 stroke oil or equivalent motor oil. API service classification SF or SG". Thats all it says. It doesnt say no synthetics, it doesnt say you must use honda oil only.
Buying the old car oil at Auto zone, which is SF oil, at 69 cents a quart, is prefectly acceptable.

 

But, like I said above, if you go buy a bottle of HP4 (synthetic blend) and read the label, it says not for use in autoclutch bikes. You can be sure Honda would recommend HP4 for your bike if they could, it's twice the price of GN4! GN4 is dino oil, so its "equivalent" is another dino oil, not a synthetic. Duh!

Again, like I said before, they don't say it outright, but a discerning person is going to connect the dots and come to that conclusion. I'm sick of telling you the same thing over and over again. If you cant draw that conclusion, run pi$$ in you bikes for all I care!

I have nothing against synth, in its place. I run full synth Rotella-T in my truck and van, synth blend HP4 in my 400's and HP4M in the 450. If I insisted on running full synth in my quad, then I would run Maxima Ultra, not Amsoil. http://www.maximausa.com/ It comes in 0W-30 and 0W-10, which should get you through the coldest weather anywhere on earth. (If somebody is out riding in weather that cold, they are crazy anyway!)

 

I cant find a link to the report, but in the Jan 2003, Motorcycle consumer news, on page 16, in their series on motorcycle oils, they even state,"we noted that our HP4(supposedly non-moly) still contained 68 ppm". Honda knows theres moly in it, even though the label says it doesnt. Thats why they wont recommend it. It has nothing to do with being dino oil or synthetic. It has to do with moly.
It really doesnt matter to me what someone else puts in their crankcase, but it does matter to me, that the facts are presented accurately.

 

This doesn't make any more sense to me than it does to you, alright! I can't see why an autoclutch clutch pack is any different than a fully manual clutch pack, except for the centrifugal clutch parts!

Not every time I tell my kids something, do I give them a rational explanation of why. I just tell them what to do and how to do it, and leave it at that. I think Honda has taken this track on this issue. They don't give a rational explanation, they just say this is what to run, and that is the end of it. For me, GN4 is decent oil at a descent price, so that is what I have run in all 6 of my Honda autoclutch bikes since the day they were new. And, MY MOTORS LAST FOREVER, AND A DAY! By the way, I asked the dealership for their take on this, and they said if you bring your bike in to be serviced, they put GN4 in EVERYTHING. That's right, they would run GN4 in a CRF450 motocross racer! Not good news!

In the past, Honda put HP4 with moly and HP4 without moly, in the same gold colored bottle. You really HAD TO READ THE FINE PRINT, to see the difference! A lot of people (me inclided), didn't figure this out for a while, and ran the stuff with moly without knowing it. I ran it in my 300EX, 400EX, and Z400, and have NOT noticed any ill effects whatsoever! This was appearently a big "scandal" among road bikers, where a lot of riders had slipping clutches. I will bet that the article you are refering to, is addressing that issue????

Honda just this year, started putting HP4 with moly in silver bottles, and they are now calling it HP4M. HP4 without moly is still in gold bottles, to avoid confusion. If there is still a little moly in HP4, and that doesn't hurt my manual clutch bikes, well that is just fine with me! Find the link and post it, so we can get the true story.