This is kind of off the beaten path, but is there a easy way to bypass the nuetral swith on the 450s model so it will crank by the starter while in gear? This surely would be handy.

 

i would power the wire thats being talked about, although it sounds like the diode is there to prevent you from doing what you plan on doing, but i think your concern about the es model having issues, may actuall not be a issue, the gentlemen stated that the nutral pickup wire is in the gear selector box, i was under the impression correct me if im wrong, i have a rancher so my thinking applies to my machine, that the angle sensor is what actually indicates to the ecm what gear the bike is in, my feeling would be the display would still show 5th gear, but the when u hit the overide the switch the green light for the netural will come on, this is the same as the s model rancher so, in the efforts of saving money i doubht honda gave the s model the same computer control of the es, i bet they are independent systems, and u can override, because it sounds like its a simple safety device, i doubht it interacts with the computer,

 

Littltebill,
You are correct in your thinking on your Rancher, the Foreman is different, the gear position switch in the rear of the engine is utilized for its reverse, neutral, 1st and 5th gear, to signal the ECM what gear position the tranny is in and light the meter lights. The angle sensor is primarily used for control of the electric shift and gear position digits on the meters display . ( adds a little twist to electrical troubleshooting shift problems on these units ) Your Rancher is simpler to diagnose in this aspect. The Angle sensor does more than control the meter.

----- Gimpster -----

 

Hondabuster --

The light green/red wire is routed to the Ignition control module ( ICM ) and is branched to the digital meter and to the electronic control unit ( ECM ). Power is fed to it from one of the two lighter gauged wires at the starter solenoid which is light green /red. So what I am thinking would be to clip the light green/red wire at the ICM ( letting the other components tied the gear position switch, neutral tab, still function) and power the light green/red wire going into the ICM. Don't try this until I find it works. I think the diode knocks down the voltage in that system, and it may only be letting 5 volts or 7 volts into that system. applying 12 volts into the ICM from the light green/ red wire may damage the ICM.

The 450S is wired the same way, excluding of coarse the branch from the light green/ red wire to the ECM, that it does not have. I have experienced not being able to pull start them after a shift shaft ball pivot breaking off, leaving the unit in gear, and the unit turned off. Unable to get it into nuetral from the inability to shift, the units will not start in gear by the pull starter rope.

----- Gimpster -----

 

Guys...the gear position switch works on grounds, not + battery voltage. In order to make a Foreman S start in gear, you simply have to ground the light green\red wire, same on the Rancher manual shift models. Matter of fact, I just showed one of our techs how to do it yesterday on a Rancher manual with a broken shift drum. You could probably do the same on the ES models, but like Hondabuster said, it would probably confuse the ESP program since the machine already thinks it's in another gear, and it would probably set off an angle sensor error code. I'll take a closer look at the wiring diagram today, but I think you're ''screwed" unless the angle sensor is in the neutral position, and I don't know how you'd arrange that without removing it, and manually turning it there. Anyway, better not just go powering up ECM wires unless you're positive about what you're doing.

 

The system (Lg/R wire) has power and the neutral switch grounds it to complete the circut. Unplug the connector at the ICM and check the Lg/R wire with a test light, it has power, follow it back to the source ( starter solenoid ), It has power. Green is normally ground, but this one is power. I think if you cut the Lg/R wire going into the connector at the ICM, you will have spark in all gears. But if you cut the wire any where else, you could disable the other branches of the circut and have troubles with those components. I haven't tried it yet, but I will soon. If I don't have any spark with the Lg/R wire cut at the ICM ( Or what most people call the CDI ) then I will try to ground the Lg/R wire coming off the ICM plug to see if I have spark. I will leave the end of the wire leading to the wire harness unconnected, and by right the other systems should function like they are supposed to when the gear switch grounds it out in the neutral position. I have a hacked 450 on my bench now, so if it works, I will post an update.

----- Gimpster -----

 

You might be on to something Gimpster. I forgot to look at a diagram yesterday. Usually the Lg\R goes to the cellunoid\relay and provides a ground for the starter button (usually yellow\red and hot when button is pushed). That way, if the machine isn't in neutral, the starter button doesn't work, becuase it has no ground. You probably know that already. I'm not absolutely positive, but I think you'll find you have to ground the Lg\R. Let us know and good job.

 

Im glad the two of you answered the post. Im beginning to understand this a bit better.
I did a google search, and came up with this.


teambadforeman


It doesnt specificly say it will work on an es, but does work on S, of both rancher and foreman.
Now that I look over the wiring diagram, that gear position switch does provide the ground.
The switch appears to just provide grounds for all the wires, depending on which gear is selected.
You guys are the best...any harm in me trying out the switch, as described in the article?

 

Sorry I can't update any findings today, I had 3 Rubicons to work on today, and a '05 Rancher.

The reason this thread caught my attention is because the 450 I mentioned above has been fighting me, It will run for 3 minutes then loose spark. Everything checks out on the unit. Even the procedures in my Honda advanced electrical technical training manual has turned up nothing wrong. The system we are discussing, on this thread, is where I have traced the problem to. I just can't figure what is going on in it to make me loose spark after a short period of time. So I have to find if the Lg/R wire is loosing power inside the solenoid or grounding, or if the gear position sender is giving me the problem. Like I said, the same system that cuts the spark from starting the unit in gear, is the same circut that is giving me problems with this unit. Somewhere along the line I will find the answer to both problems.

dzzy -- I'll let you know what I find. Sometimes I find simple things confusing. Being a Senior tech keeps me busy with the tough jobs in the shop and checking other techs work. Interuptions in a job can leave a fella lost and confused by time he gets back to it. LOL

----- Gimpster -----

 

Yes hondabuster, that thread explains what I was talking about. That circuit disables the starter from working in gear, but I think on these newer machines the ignition is disabled as well. Why else would they run the neutral switch wire up to the ICM? I hear ya Gimpster. Simple isn't always obvious. One thing about electrical, when you do figure it out, it makes perfect sense in RETROSPECT = ). Your spark problem...and you're probably on to this trick. We've had a few 450's lose spark because of faulty stators, and reg\rects. Not something you normally think of even being related to spark on battery type ignitions. On ATV's (DC-CDI ignition) with (what Honda calls) an AC Consent wire, usually solid yellow to the ICM, from the stator and reg\rect, those items can make the machine lose spark.