OH...and hondabuster, there is not harm in trying. I'm quite certain you can get the starter to spin that way with the machine in gear (of course it could lurch forward if the RPM is too high). I kinda doubt if the machine will start though, but it's worth a try.

 

dzzy -
How bout the trx300fw in around '91 or '92 where they branch the ignition ( AC ) off one of the yellow wires in the stator. Suddenly you have no spark. HMMM. In the end you find the voltage regulator has a green wire going into it next to a yellow wire (same yellow wire that is branched to the ignition), and they are grounded together inside the regulator, cutting the ignition. Had one kick my butt back around '95 until I figured it out. LOL I keep a bad regulator in my tool box ( one that will not charge ) to plug into those units with no spark to see if it is the problem. Saved me some lost pay time and time again. I love honda's wiring engineeres, they keep you on your diagnostic toes, LOL I would rather trouble shoot a Honda electrical than Polaris with all the same color wires !!

----- Gimp -----

 

Ill try it this weekend.
But im still puzzled....like dzzy said, the green/red wire provides a ground to the cdi. So not only does the nuetral switch keep the starter from spinning( when not in nuetral, but keeps spark from happening). So the next question, if you dont mind, is what switches over, and provides that ground to the cdi,,,,once the tranny is in gear? (because the green/red wire is no longer a ground).
How does the circuit know when to provide spark and when not to. Like when I was riding along..flicked the kill switch on, and back off, but it killed the spark, until I went back to nuetral. I can see how key off, would reset things, but something must be in the kill switch circuit, that resets the computer, too. I see why the nuetral switch, when in gear, wont provide spark at the beginning. They dont want it to be rope started in gear. But how does the motor know when its already running, and to continue to allow spark, once it goes into gear?
At this point, if it bump starts, with the jumper, and the es isnt confused...ill be happy.
Thanks for your help, I appreciate it.

 

The machine won't lurch forward, it'll start as if the machine was in neutral. I modified my 1999 TRX300FW to start in gear and it works wonderfully. What I did on mine is similar to what has been talked about here. I cut the ground wire coming out of the ICM and manually grounded the ICM side of the wire to the frame. Then I cut the ground wire coming out of the starter relay and manually grounded the relay side of the wire to the frame. Works great!

It isn't as easy with an ES model though...

 

Well, I'm going in tomorrow, Just to find the answer to this puzzle.

LOL

----- Gimp -----

 

Hondabuster, unlike the gear position sending unit(s) the kill switch provides battery voltage to various components...the ICM, ECM, probably the ignition coil. The ignition switch is wired in series in the same circuit. That is, they are both just switches that do essentially the same thing. As to why the machine needs the neutral ground to provide spark at start up, but not in other gears, I'm not sure. I also don't know why the yellow\red and light green\red are wired together with a diode. Anyway, it's too early in the morning to think about this anymore.

 

This is where Im at.
Made a jumper wire, with aligator clips, I just want to see how it works before going to the trouble of wiring in a switch.
Put the es in 2nd gear, and turned the key off. Hooked up the jumper, and turned the key back on. I had a nuetral light, so I hit the starter button, and it fired right up. While running, I removed the jumper, and the nuetral light went off.
However, the display has the 2(gear number), flashing in sets of 4.
So the jumper, will allow starting, but confuses the es. Not gonna do me much good, if it wont shift after startup. I turned it off, then back on, and the display is normal...it just shows a steady 2.
Ive heard of others, who have cut the gr/r wire, coming out of the cdi, and grounding the cdi side, with a switch. This wont give a nuetral indication, because the wire harness side isnt grounded ( in gear). And should allow the es part, to not get confused. Of course, the only options then would be to bump start or pull the rope. This should allow spark, in gear, with out the motor already running. Trouble is, It would be necesary to use that switch every time , to start the motor, if I wanted to use the starter motor...even in nuetral.
I still cant figure out, how the motor knows its already running, and allows spark in gear. Is it simply, that it has a relay tripped, and until the key is turned to off, or the kill switch is turned off, itll stay engaged and allow spark?
I was hoping this jumper wouldnt confuse the es, but does.

 

Have you tried turning the engine off using the kill switch, but leaving the ignition in the "on" position? Do this, then connect the jumper and restart the engine.

 

The Lg/R wire also branches off into the ECU, letting it know the unit is in neutral, and the ignition pulse generator ( Blue wire with yellow stripe ) runs to the ICM ( CDI ) to trigger spark, and is branched off to the ECU as a rpm signal wire. But I don't think they play a role in the unit sparking while running and in gear. The 450S ( footshift ) does not have an ECM, and will not start in gear.
Both the units have the same wire and connector set-up going into the ICM ( CDI ) , here are the wire colors and where they go.

Blackwire/white stripe, 2 pin connector of the ICM to ignition terminal of the engine stop switch ( kill switch )
Light green wire/Red stripe, 2 pin connector of ICM to neutral position within the gear position switch
Yellow wire, 4 pin connector of the ICM to one of the stator wired, also branched to the regulator
Black wire/Yellow stripe, 4 pin connector of ICM to the coil
Blue wire/Yellow stripe, 4 pin connector of ICM to pulse generator, also branched off to the ECU
Green wire/White stripe, 4 pin connector of ICM to engine ground connector, also branched into the stator ground.

Both the 450ES and 450S models are wired the same at the ICM. So there are a few ways the ignition could be switched to spark after the unit is taken out of neutral, or the starter button released. It is controlled within the ICM.

Anyone remember the TRX300's in the '90s that would not spark until the starter button was released ? They changed the ICM in those units, then they would spark while being cranked over.

----- Gregg -----

 

Yes I remember that. Think it was about 95 or so. At the time, Honda was trying to patronize US suppliers for their parts, instead of their regular Japanese suppliers. They changed their ICM supplier from (either ND or Mitsuba) to Philips (made in USA). Then they had that wierd "won't start until you let up on the starter button" issue. Think it was about that time to they switched tire suppliers to Goodyear (another US company I think). This is a little off topic, but have you ever noticed on GL1500's how they'll do the same thing if battery voltage is marginal. Last summer I worked on one that did that same thing, but had a perfectly good battery. The problem ended up being a poor connection on the main fuse (the one mounted on the starter cellunoid). I found it by doing a voltage drop test across it. Something inside the part of the relay that supplies power to the main fuse circuit was consuming several volts. I replaced the cellunoid and the GL worked perfectly.