Sounding a bit defensive there Bash, take it easy. This is exactly the reason I haven't been visiting/posting here lately, but here's a nice lengthy "Gabe style" post to chew on, maybe the last for a while...

I have run stock components with quite a bit of success on the MX track. If you've ever been to a local MX race, you will no doubtedly see many 400EX's out there with stock suspension components doing quite well. Yes, usually the more experienced riders win a lot & if they race MX a lot, they will have lots of aftermarket stuff on their bikes, but put those same guys on a basically stock 250R or 400EX and they will still do really well, I have personally seen this many times.

Up until recently my bike was completely stock except tires and handlebars, now I have a set of shocks, this is because with the amount of air I am getting (see pics on my webpage, the vast majority are with completely stock components), if I land a little bit off, it's really hard on my chassis & suspension... I do not need a set of control arms and axle, or even shocks to be very competitive out there, although I would probably have them if I didn't enjoy woods racing so much.

You Raptor guys may not like what I am going to say here, but no one else has, these are the reasons I didn't go out and buy a Raptor with the rest of you.

The Banshee proves time and time again that you don't need the most horsepower to win races, unless you are in the sand or drag racing...

The Raptor's seat height is around 2" higher than a 400EX, yet the frame to ground clearance is nearly the same. What this means is that if you do get a set of high quality shocks to control the body roll & lower the bike, your seat height will be really close to a stock 400EX, yet your frame to ground clearance will be around 8". You've just spent $1200+. Do the same mod to a 400EX and your seat height & center of gravity is much lower with the same amount of frame to ground clearance.

Buy a set of control arms for the Raptor, get some +2's, also get an extended axle. You are now approximately as wide as a stock 400EX, but almost $1000 in the hole, the control arm mod will also require shocks.

The Raptor has very little (if any) rake to the front end, the 400EX has 15 degrees. This will take it's toll on front wheels, tires, control arms, control arm bearings/bushings, and the Rider. Think of a motorcycle. How many have forks that sit striaght up and down (no rake)? This will show itself when powering into a steep hill climb, hitting square edge bumps like roots, ledgerock, etc. Ouch... What's the fix? A new frame is the only answer.

The Rear suspension of the Raptor. The rear shocks sits nearly horizontal and is connected to a linkage system. The shock itself has very little travel, with linkage setting up the leverage ratios to give the Raptor 8.7" of rear travel. This means that the shock moves at a very slow rate compared to the movement of the swingarm, offering very little tunability & control (if this were a desirable setup, you would see short travel shocks mounted close to the inside pivot point of the control arms on the front of a quad, instead of the opposite). To fix this would require substantial swingarm/linkage and chassis modification - if it's even possible at all.

High center of gravity. Radiators mounted high, rider mounted high, all upper frame components (fuel tank, radiator overflow, hardware, plastic, seat, etc..) mounted high.... nuff said. No fix short of chassis replacement.

Funky streetbike gearing, 64mph in 3rd, rendering 4th and 5th are practically useless in most riding conditions. An expensinve tranny regearing is the only "real" solution.

In stock form, weak aluminum upper control arms, and axle that's too small diameter at the wheels & is apparently prone to bending. We've bent a 400EX steel upper control arm, you can't tell me that uppers don't see a lot of stress, thinwall aluminum tubing won't do (why don't you see aluminum aftermarket control arms?). Nuff said.

For what I do and enjoy (which is a lot of just about every type of riding available), it's all about the basis, the 400EX, at this point, seems a better basis to start from, with it's only disadvantage being it's a down on HP compared to a Raptor.

Back to the original topic though....
I think it is quite obvious that the Raptor out HP's the 400EX, that was never the question. If you haven't been to the dunes before, you may not realize that they are quite open. Often racing thru the sand trails is a test of HP, nads, and endurance. If the 400EX (being 10hp down) kept up with the Raptor and Banshee in this horsepower sucking environment, it is a true testament to both rider and bike. If he had been able to outrun them, it would have been a very sad statement indeed.

BTW Bash, what's up with the clutch replacement already??

 

Okay, Gabe, I wasn't trying to provoke an arguement, especially with you because I believe that you are a valued poster on this and other atv forums.

If you think about it, I believe that you'll agree that I've been one of the most open-minded Raptor owners to post about it. I've listed my likes and dislikes with it. I was even the first (maybe only) to come out and tell of having a problem with the A-arm, even though it may have been a fluke.

I'll try to reply to each of your points if I can.

As far as stock, I didn't mean that it would not be competitive in stock form, just that it wouldn't be as much as a quad with a set-up for MX. In fact, people who have ridden my Raptor seem to compare it to the 250R in the way that it handles.

I will agree with you on the height and rake issue that there isn't a really good way to change it without affecting something else, but until you ride one and see that the higher seat doesn't have that much of an affect, there's no point in arguing it further.

Yes, there has been at least one case of an A-arm being bent, and an axle or two as well. The guy who bent an axle said that he did the same thing with his old 400ex. It's not like Honda is without problems to the 400ex. My aluminum
swing-arm is extruded, the 400ex is cast. In fact, the breakage on the 400ex swing-arm is widely known and Honda even sells them at a reduced rated since they are basically disposable.

If the radiator being mounted high is a bad thing, then what would it be if it had no radiator at all, like the 400ex? Would you be on here criticizing the Raptor if I had to run synthetic oil in it just to keep it from smoking because it gets so hot that the oil breaks down and becomes so thin that the rings won't hold it in?
You know, just like the 400ex!

Now, if you want to bore or stroke that 400ex in order to achieve levels of power comparable to the Raptor, how much is it going to cost you and how are you going to keep it cool, when in stock form, it already runs too hot?

Speaking of gears, you criticize the Raptor for it's useless 4th and 5th gears. That sounds kind of funny coming from a guy that is promoting a quad that will just keep up or exceed
the Raptors speed in 3rd while you're wide open in 5th! (maybe you're right, I guess they are useless since I really don't need them in order to beat a 400ex) Just look at it this way, if you have a Raptor, you've got all the speed of a 400ex with two bonus forward gears!

Oh and talk about useless, that's what I'd call the 400ex reverse gear, since it doesn't have one. What is that going to cost you? Probably not much since it would be next to impossible to retrofit it with a reverse gear.

Now, this is the time to declare me as being defensive. In my prior post, I think I was very tactful, but since you threw off the gloves first, I figured I might as well.

Have a good one Gabe, and I hope this doesn't mean we can't be friends (lol)! No seriously, I think that we both have pretty good post usually and look forward to constructive post from both of us in the future.

 

Bash & other Raptor owners, I do not mean to disrespect your bikes, they are very nice machines. But I am being realistic about it, for my use and intent, they have several "issues". I could have bought one like the rest of you (and passed the EX down to the wife, as I need to get her a bike anyway), I did not. What you are seeing me post are my reasons. I did consider the Raptor, the more I learned about it, the more I thought I would be better off with my 400.

If you think about it, I believe that you'll agree that I've been one of the most open-minded Raptor owners to post about it.

I agree, you don't seem to be as blinded as some of the others, that's why I found it odd that you replied as you did to my orignial post, I guess your first sentence is what instigated it...

Yes, there has been at least one case of an A-arm being bent, and an axle or two as well. The guy who bent an axle said that he did the same thing with his old 400ex. <snip>

Selective reading. That owner also stated that his 400EX axle took SUBSTANTIALLY more abuse than his Raptor's. The Raptor's axle gets too small at the ends, take a look for yourself. I wasn't making fun of your bent control arm, just noting the fact that aluminum tubing is not a suitable material for an upper control arm on an ATV. I believe if you searched back, you would find me voicing my concerns about this long before the first Raptor fell into the general public's hands.

As far as the swingarms go, I haven't broken one yet (again, see the pics on my website, these are not a choice few outings, these depict the daily abuse my bike gets), although I have broken 2 steel swingarms on other bikes. The folks I know that have broken them, have abused them. Mostly bad landings of doubles at the track, severely bottoming, etc.... The Raptor's swingarm may be extruded and may or may not be stronger, but it is big, bulky, and poorly designed... There are also a lot more 400EX's out there than Raptors, many more being raced on stock components, much more time to have reported failures.... Bottom line - I would trust my swingarm a lot farther than I would trust the aluminum control arms on a Raptor landing a big air jump. We haven't even begun to see the beginning of the Raptor control arm problem (I have heard 3 or 4 reports so far on the ATV sites & NG's that I monitor)...

I will agree with you on the height and rake issue ..<snip>.. there's no point in arguing it further.

I have raced with one, timed laps (so I could watch every detail of his runs, which I did with great interest), conclusion: It seemed to accelerate well, but had very substantial cornering issues that were reflected in his laptimes, end of story...

If the radiator being mounted high is a bad thing, then what would it be if it had no radiator at all, like the 400ex? ..<snip>.. You know, just like the 400ex!

That's really a low blow, although I wouldn't mind a liquid cooled engine, the XR/EX 400 engine has proven itself as one of the most reliable designs there is PERIOD. Extra precautions should be taken (ie. heavier, better quality oil) for the air cooled design, but even if you run conventional oil and lighter weights (which, may I remind you were developed for liquid cooled automotive engine oil temperatures) the smoking is very slight, only happens on deceleration and there isn't even enough oil being lost to constitute adding any between changes. For the added weight and complexity of liquid cooling as far as the 400EX goes, I'll take running synthetic oil vs potential coolant problems and added weight of the system.

As far as radiator mounting location, this is just yet another example of how Yamaha still isn't doing what they could. Look to the radiators on a 250R of 13 years ago.

Now, if you want to bore or stroke that 400ex in order to achieve levels of power comparable to the Raptor, how much is it going to cost you and how are you going to keep it cool, when in stock form, it already runs too hot?

Cost? < $500, I should be easily turning about 35hp (hopefully) or so when said and done. The EX doesn't run too hot for an air cooled engine, once again, the right oil for the application. If you can't figure that part out, you deserve what you get.

Speaking of gears, you criticize the Raptor for it's useless 4th and 5th gears. That sounds kind of funny ..<snip>.. with two bonus forward gears!

Look at it how you like, if you get your jollies by beating over 250cc smaller machines in a straight drag that's your prerogative (you don't see many 400EX owners touting that they just "spanked" Mojave's, 300EX's & 230 Quadsports in a straight drag). Try running against a bike with a similar sized engine (ie. the DS650, beware of the Raptor's 5hp deficit though). The way I see it, is about .001% of my time gets spent at or above 65mph, why would I want 2 of my valuable gearing selections between 65mph and 75mph? I would much prefer them to be where I can use them to put the engine exactly where it needs to be coming out of a corner, etc. You know as well as I that there has been nothing but complaints about the Raptor's gearing..

Oh and talk about useless, that's what I'd call the 400ex reverse gear <snip>

More and more low blows... Reverse on a lightweight sport bike has never been and probably never will be an issue for me. I've done for 20 years without it, unnecessary in my book, there are many alternative and very effective methods of turning around, most are faster than trying to engage and dis-engage a reverse gear...

Have a good one Gabe, and I hope this doesn't mean we can't be friends

Not at all. I'm just kinda surprized to see this coming from you. I'm just really picky on the technical end and though that I presented my points in a very professional and informative manner (and tried to do so in this post as well)...

The clutch question at the end of my last post was merely curiosity, not trying to insinuate anything at all...
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That's cool Gabe!... I see your points from your perspective and again, I will say that the Raptor isn't the right bike for everyone. I wasn't trying to slam your ride too hard either with the reverse and cooling issues, just bringing to light that both quads have certain issues. You can deal with the ones on the 400, and hopefully I can live with the ones on the Raptor.

I forgot to answer the clutch question. I replaced it with a Barnett, but it wasn't due to a bad (i.e. faulty) clutch or anything like that. Worth noting to any Raptor owner is that the Raptor has 5 springs holding the pressure plate instead of the 6 on the Banshee. This means that you can go with the heavier springs and it still isn't too hard to pull the clutch lever.

Take it easy Gabe and continue to keep the informative post coming!

 

I personally dont think that the people bashing the Raptor ever rode one. I had a 400ex and thougt it had power, then when i rode Raptor it was totally differant story Raptor handles as good or better also. I let one of my friends with a 400ex ride it and i rode his bike. When i got on the bike it was like riding a bicycle. No power.

 

That about right. What the shame is, my 13 year old TRX250R out runs the 400 and 440ex's. Then my Other 12 year old R with the 300 kit does in the Raptor. Is this the best these companies can do with 13 years of research?