He did address the question, even if neither your or he knew it. The question IS reliability. I guess I dont know how you can whine because Honda hasnt released a new machine in 2 years. Its not the fact that they havent released any new models, its the fact that the models they have arent always competitive with offerings from other companies. That lack of a competitive edge is what brings out these questions. Honda's name is synonymous with reliability in this industry and others and its no accident. If honda was releasing new models every year or two, as some manufacturers do, that reputation would be tainted. It takes time and repeated testing to thoroughly analyze a new design and with a truncated time table less of that can take place. Sure they could spit out a new model every year, but they wouldnt hold up for as long as their seasoned counterparts. Even with the rigorous testing that Honda does its possible for things to slip through the cracks, so imagine what kind of problems you would see if they took half the time to design and build them? There is no other manufacturer of atvs that makes with a more reliable product line than Honda by any measure. Thats one heck of a selling point and not worth giving up just because thier machines are the top of the class anymore.

With all its innovations and new models in the last few years what has polaris been through? Thier machines are considered the antithesis of reliable and while they improve there are still multiple problems on massive scales. Kawasaki currently has a massive recall on thier utes and had limp mode issues on the prairie line. Suzuki had bad transmission in the vinson and junk reverse in the KQ. Yamaha had serious overheating problems and broken axles on the grizz660 and the grizzly 600 was extremely problematic. Bomb has been fairly reliable with mostly minor issues, there was quite a span between the release of the 650 and 800 utes though. Hondas biggest problem has been the transmission in the Rincon. When Polaris released thier belt drives there were serious problems, new types of transmissions are very difficult to get right on the first try but as they go the Rincon's hasnt been too bad. Most are running without problems. That is another issue possibly contributing to the wait for the next big bore ute, improving or replacing the transmission use in the Rincon.

But when it comes down to it I have to wonder, why is someone with a decidedly "not cutting edge" atv from a different manufacturer complaining about this issue? Its my guess you arent an exclusive honda owner, since you ride a Polaris. Maybe you turned to polaris because you didnt like the offerings Honda had in that class. Fine, but if you can turn to polaris why not turn elsewhere too? As an industry the atv world is moving forward at an alarming rate compared to the drought of the 90's. Honda isnt at the forefront in the utility world, but thier sales are strong and thier bikes are very capable of completing the majority of tasks a rider demands of them. I'd tell you to buy something else if you dont like it, but you already have. We all want Honda to come out with new machines, we even want companies we dont like to come out with new stuff so maybe our favorite manufacturers will one-up them. Sometimes you just have to be patient, and for those who are not there are other avenues.

 

Well said maddog56...

 

You will never convince most of the ATV club that I ride with that Honda=Reliability any more than any of the other brand 4x4 ATVs they ride with..Perhaps its the versatile mixed terrains we ride that bring out the best that a full featured ATV has?One thing I do know for sure,is,that without modifications,the Honda 4x4s dont do the same backwoods tasks as easy as the other brand 4x4s do..The lack of ground clearance,front lockers,disk brakes,adjustable shocks,low transmission,ect-can all make for a more miserable day for the Honda 4x4 rider vs its competetion.

I've been on BOTH sides of this..I owned the 2003 Rincon for 2 yrs,and while it did most of the things the other full featured ATVs did in the backwoods,it did'nt do these tasks nearly as easy..

Reliability=Honda?Are you kidding me?My Rincon had issues with the tranny,leaky front brake seals,tie rod ends,and rear wheel bearings...I pity the fool that buys a Honda on the mere misconception of reliability.

 

Hate to break the news to you.....But your reign at the top of the sales charts in many classes has ended my friend. That is the point. Why doesn't Honda want to catch up to the comp. They did a decent job of answering Yamaha's YFZ but, they're still hunting deer with sticks in the ute. class. Face it Honda 4X4's? Pathetic!

 

...

 

As I pointed out, Hondas biggest problem with their atvs has been the reliability of the Rincon, specifically the transmission. Their other utility machines mated to auto clutch and even hondamatic transmissions are extremely reliable. My Kawasaki prairie has been a pile of junk compared to the Honda Rancher I sold to get it. And with that rancher I was able to follow anywhere an automatic Eiger went, and a lot farther after new tires. Yeah their machines are 3wd, but in the vast majority of situations that recreational riders put them through, thats sufficient. IMO the Rincon is the worst machine Honda has put out in a long time, but in reality its not really that bad compared to other machines in the over 500cc class as far as reliability goes. As I stated before every company has had serious problems with thier big bore lineup, its just that this time Honda isnt the exception so owners like you who were accustomed to that stigma of Honda Reliability feel cheated and wronged because the Rincon doesnt live up to it.

I've got a feeling I've seen one or two of your riding group, and I'm aware of some of the predispositions on atvs around here. Polaris has some sort of edge for a reason I've yet to figure out, and they seem to be the most common utes around. But if you check the auto traders and papers you'll find handfulls of Honda 300 and 350 utilities a decade old that still run like a top, something you cant say about the other manufacturers if you can even find thier bikes that old. Suzuki's old KQ is the only other bike that I've actually seen this with, but they are far less common. I'm not sure how "versatile" your mix of terrain is. Sure there are lots of open areas, muddy swamps, winding trails, and other types of terrain but most of it is mild compared to a ride elsewhere. Out west my family uses hondas and arctic cats to bring elk in off the Rockies. In Tennessee my relatives own 5 Honda utes as they tackle the Great Smokies and the types of riding I've never experienced. Terrain that is hard to find here is often prevalaint elsewhere, and IMO the rolling hills if Michigan and the occasional incline or huckleberry marsh doesnt compare to the mountaints or the clay and mud found elsewhere in the country.

 

Glad to see muddy didn’t miss his opportunity to Honda bash or use his “my quad is better than your quad” line. You really got to quit the bitchin and go riding. Why does Honda bother you so? And just so you know muddy, if I’m loyal to any brand, Yamaha 2 strokes hold a special place in my heart, ahhhh ping - ping - ping. Particularly the twin, triple, and quad 2 strokes. IMO they’ve always had the one of the best balances of performance, reliability, technology, and overall appeal (not all products mind you, I do love to ride anything).

I’m in the Honda forum because I own one, not because I love or hate them – like you.

Nevertheless, everyone else please explain to me what cutting edge is because I must be wrong? I always thought it was newly introduced technology that had no equal in performance or redefined the way a function was performed for the better.

Do you think there’s a utility loaded with cutting edge out there?

EFI - Sorry, but 20 years after it appeared on a snowmobile or motorcycle? Battery-less EFI was cutting edge, but the KQ’s isn’t – low speed stumble and all. DFI might be, but they are already using it on OB engines, so it’s nothing new anymore.

Independent rear suspension – not, a 60s XKE had it. The M151 had it decades ago too. Does it work for every application? No. So should it be on every ATV, no. Nobody gets a feather in their cap for that one.

Automatic trans – not very cutting edge when it comes to belts – that’s been around for decades. The Hondamatic? Well that’s a lot closer true cutting edge, no rival and no real comparison.

Disc brakes? Not cutting edge here – been around for decades. Now putting the discs on the driveshaft or on the inboard side of the axle for better suspension action and to keep them out of the mud (which some have discovered eats brake pads) and offer better suspension action is more cutting edge. Unified braking sure isn’t cutting edge. How many production disc brake systems have scrapers? Maybe that’s cutting edge?

All-Wheel-Drive? Well, sometimes awd that is, as long as you are going forward. Not cutting edge and come to think of it, not even properly copied by some.

Locked differential – hardly cutting edge – been around as long as 4wd has. Remote activation is close, but it been around for years too. It is installable for less than $500, but not everyone – or close to everyone needs the absolute locking of the front end. Visco-lock is the closest here to cutting edge, but again, borrowed technology. I don’t see anyone complain their F250 doesn’t have a locker.

However, I do not go to other forums and bash them for not having what I want. I could have bitched at Honda for not having a brake light, Suzuki for the retarded belt drive, band-aid fixes, or fragile bodywork (not good for a true ute), Polaris for the weight, Arctic for the width, height, and getting rid of the articulating SRA, Yamaha and Kawasaki for not offering something other than a belt or not having a 500cc machine - and so on, and so on....

My point is that utility ATVs have always been an aggregation of existing technologies for the most part. There is very little true cutting edge on ATVs, and Honda does not lag behind TRUE cutting edge features. Just because brand X is the first to put a feature on an ATV does not necessarily make it cutting edge or innovative, or useful and reliable. Find what you are looking for and buy it regardless of the brand if they are all reliable. Don’t pick on Honda because you can’t brag you have the fastest slug utility if you buy the Rincon. Fast utility ATV - an oxymoron.

Just because Polaris was the first to use the (same) belt power transmission (they had been previously using for 30 years on a sled) for their ATVs does not mean they deserve an award for innovation, unless its for taking the easy way out. It's reliability and performance record has been, well, pathetic.

You aren’t talking about cutting edge technology, you are talking about creature comforts or features. I have yet to be left behind by a lack of such features, but then again I am not out destroying the environment by proving I can make it though a giant mud puddle in the middle of a trail during spring (in case you haven’t noticed we are losing more trails every year in the Northeast because of the “mudders” out there)

And sorry to those that disagree about the reliability thing, some manufacturers have a long way to go before they can claim their ATVs are as reliable as everything else out there. By this many miles on my Suzuki powered Arctic Cat I replaced ½ dozen CV boots, (disc) brake pads, an axle, and 2 gears in the sub-transmission. My Honda has needed nothing since I brought it home, as with my Hondas in the past. How long before you can say that about the King or an ATV with EFI?

you weekend recreational riders claim “well its been reliable for a year…….”

Keep your fingers crossed.

 

Just curious, can you point out the reliability problems with the Rincon tranny?

As a high mileage Rincon owner, I'm very intrigued by your post.

 

Let me try this again...and this subject is getting to be same ole....same ole....same ole...year in and year out.

One explanation is the ATV market is made up of ALL quads from children to adult, from sport to utility, from sea to shining sea. Agreed? Honda has led in overall sales since the beginning of time. Agreed? Whereas those other markets Honda competes in are extremely competitive, Honda doesn't have the same level of competition in the ATV arena. They don't have to push the envelope. Furthermore, there are only so many models a manufacturer can produce to MAXIMIZE profits (which in turn satisfies the shareholders). Agreed? You certainly don't think a manufacturer could produce a million models and make money do you? Ok, agreed that there is a magic number of models somewhere between 1 and a 999,999. The question is there room in the Honda line-up for one more model? Would it cut into overall Honda sales if marketed? Would it lower overall earnings? Would they have to drop one of the existing moneymakers to make room? You have to think about the big picture of stocking parts, maintaining parts for models taken off the market, display space at dealerships, etc. What is the cost versus the benefit of one more model? Do you think the lawyers who fought all those cases in the 80's have any input?

I don't think Honda views the "market" as enthusiasts do. Before you can understand Honda, you have to understand what a "niche" market is. A niche market is any market where a smaller number of consumers exist. If you are a big ute or big bore sport lover, can you accept that Honda marketing believes you are in the minority? If you can, it will go a long way to understanding one of the possible answers to your question. It is really the Marketing, Sales, and Finance groups that determine what the product offering will be - not R&D and engineering groups. They play an indirect role in the end and run around internally trying to sway everyone. In the end, it is a few people in a boardroom with Powerpoint presentations and projection models that determine the line-up.

You my friend are in the minority as far as Honda is concerned. They aren't interested in appealing to the "niche" markets if it jeopardizes their bread and butter line up. Lucky for you and others, you have alternative companies producing quads that many have determined to be just as reliable as a Honda. You should be happy buying a big Suzuki, Kawi, Yamaha, or Artic Cat. Do all the manufacturers have to appeal to the same customer base? What about the majority of people that just wanted a little 300cc 4X4 to drive around the farm? I guess they better get used to riding a 1200cc, 1250 lb quad. What about the guy who wants a 6-wheeler that floats? Should Honda produce one of these too since it could sell maybe a 1,000 units a year?

It is all about "projected" profitability and how well you stack up. Honda believes they have the formula for success. I wish there was a way for you to ask the guy who is in charge of marketing the Raptor if he wishes Honda would produce a 750ex.

/jon

/Jon

 

QUAD2XTREME,
I like your post in regards to why Honda does'nt cater to folks with feature desires,it makes quite a bit of sense after reading it..What I dont understand is WHY somebody would purchase a Honda ATV made today with far less features than the competetion and a higher MSRP?Years ago when Honda had a leading edge in the reliability department,I could understand this,but certainly not by todays standards.