I do believe Honda absolutely KILLS Yamaha in dirtbike sales. I mean Honda absolutely KILLS Yamaha, to the point of embarassment.

Just like their ATV's, Honda must be doing something right...

 

Hmm rear brake light eh? You might want to rethink that one, my 2001 rancher had a big red lens right in the middle of the back of the bike on the lid of the rear compartment. To the best of my knowledge it illuminated when you hit the brakes...

Disc brakes arent as clearcut as your high and mighty position make them out to be. A triple sealed drum brake may not have the stopping performance of a disc, but you also dont have to worry about water and mud eating away the pads and rotors. Think about it, where does a utility quad spend its time? Thats right, the yucky stuff. So as long as your brakes stay sealed up, they are going to last longer than rotors and pads exposed to the elements. Since we are so concerned with "cuttting edge" here I'll point out that only Kawasaki has worked up a truly intelligent way to incorporate disc brakes for the rear and still keep them out of the nasty stuff.

Justshutupandride, what a fitting screnname for this thread.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] Thanks for the kudos and thanks for tackling the issue of reliability in the long, long term. As for Prezzz's consideration of the measure of reliability its fairly straight forward in my eye. In a given situation with atvs exposed to the same hardships and conditions the Honda will be at least as reliable if not dramatically more than the other machines in the vast majority of cases and an even higher percentage as time is increased.

While I believe that quality control plays a major part in the situation we are discussing here, you cant leave out Honda's possible market position views. I wont contend the opinion that Honda isnt on the cutting edge, they are clearly not. The question you may want to ask yourself is whether or not its their desire to be, or if its really the desire of the consumers. There is more than one type of consumer buying utility atvs, not everyone wants the biggest, baddest, most expensive and gadget laden machine in production. Why compromise your name with sub par products just to compete in a relatively low-selling class. Believe it or not the big sellers for all of these companies are not the big bores but the midsized and under 501cc machines. The big ones bring the customers in and exude a picture of superiority to other brands which manufacturers hope will trickle down to represent the whole line and increase overall sales. The same thing happens in the car market and many lesser known arenas. Honda seems to be content, for the moment, to let the Rincon be its top model and stand behind the Honda name more than relying upon one particular model to carry the line. Honda has a unique position in the market and brand recognition and association that sets them apart. There are lots of people who dont want all of the bells and whilstles, bikes that are more spartan. There are also those with the KISS philosophy, and Honda makes them happy too. Honda threw traxloc, disc brakes, more transmission choices, improved engines, and now even EFI over the last couple years. Just because they are not the most sophisticated doesnt make them inferior.

 

Well I just got back from a trip to a 1200 acre riding area that had sand, mud and hills. I saw 2 Polaris 700efi's broke down, seems the electronics didn't like the water. There was a couple of King Quads there that were stuck where Kawasaki Brute Forces were going with ease! The best mudders out there seemed to be the new Bomb 800, Grizzlys and Arctic cats. I have a 450R and love it. It is far more comfortable than the YFZ, has better low end grunt for hill climbing and it suits me better! We rode with several Z400s and they are good machines, and are more comfortable than the YFZ by a long shot. My wife loves her Rancher AT and we rode that most any place we wanted to, and it was funny seeing an old Big Red and ATC 250SX out doing these monster lifted quads in the mud with their two wheel drive. That was great!

You two girls that spend more time posting what you hate and not riding are pathetic! I don't value either of your opinions and if they were paper I would surely wipe my *** with them. I saw Lifted Rincons doing any and everything that these supposed far superior quads were doing. It is mostly rider anyway! If you don't realize that you should not be teaching newbies, you jackass! Hell I still have 3 20 or so year 3 wheelers that speak to Hondas Reliabilty! I have owned other machines (kawasaki and susucki) and can tell you from working on them and the Hondas, that the Hondas have far better designs and seem to be built far heavier. It is the ticky tack BS that gives Susucki its bad name. They try and try but always come up short. The new Bomb 800 is built heavy and well thought out! It is a FAR SUPERIOR quad than the wimpy KQ. Hell I'd even take a Kawasaki Prariie with the old reliable solid rear axle before that weak design of that Susucki KQ!

And to the other moron, justshutupandride!

 

Maddog,
better go and check your 01 Rancher,cause it DONT have a brake light from the factory..It has a TAIL light only..IF there's a brake light back there,than it was ADDED after the purchase from the dealership,or it was sold in CANADA.

I dont take back a single word in regards to drum style brakes..ANYBODY who has HONESTLY played in serious mud for awhile with triple sealed drum brakes,know darn well the service these brakes will require to keep them clean.And it dont matter WHO the manufacture is,drum brakes suck when it comes to riding in mud/water after awhile.

My Rincon front brakes worked OK for about the first 4 months,than around the 5th month,all hell broke loose,as the triple sealed drum style brakes could not take the elements anymore.My buddie on a 04 Rancher narrowly missed running into the rear of my KQ a few weeks ago after he spent time with us in the mud and hit the trailway with us.WHY?,he lost his front brakes because of CONTAMINATION entering the very triple sealed brakes you so elegantly speak of,while playing in the mud..I could sit here all night and give you more experiences with drum style brakes,but unless you live it,you probably wont beleive it.

 

Muddy you are right here I won't believe you as my experiences are different. Brake pads wearing out on open disk brakes seems to happen far more than the drum brakes needing replacement. I ride my Rancher in the swamps by my house every day and have had ZERO problems with the triple sealed brake drums. I ride everyday and have a ton of hours on my quads and 3 wheelers, and I'd rather be riding than working on my stuff so I buy Honda! The 450R seems to be a good match with the YFZ from what I have seen so cutting edge wise there is almost no difference. Heck I would buy a YFZ if I thought it was that much better than the 450R, but it isn't! Like a I say, though, most of it is all rider and a good rider can do good on anything even a KQ!

 

Mark,
thats GREAT that your experience with drum style brakes has been a good one.But I can bring you in a ton of other various posts from other riders that will NEVER own drum style brakes again IF they plan on doing any extensive mud/water riding..Perhaps you might not believe these riders either,as you've had nothing but good fortune with your drum style brakes?

Its also nice you enjoy Honda products,its your hard earned cash brother,spend it as you may..

Last October,I sold my 2003 Rincon to my neighbor,its his first ATV..He likes the ATV alot,but now that im buying the new Bombardier 800,he is selling the Rincon and will now be upgrading to my 2005 King Quad.

Its great that we have so many differant brands to choose from.

 

Well it isn't just my experiences. Numerous utility 3 wheelers with rare brake repairs needed and lots on mud and nasty swamp mud and water. It wore out my 400ex brake pads faster than the drum brakes, and the Rancher and my kawasaki Bayoo rarely needed brakes either. They both spent alot more time in the grime than the 400ex and got ridden alot more. Experiences are all relative and there are idiots that don't take good care of their stuff and this is what causes failures.

You said something intelligent with regard to trading up to the Bomb 800 and ditching that KQ. The KQ is nice when new but give it time it will fail as Suzukis always seem to do! Guy I work with has a 2005 Yellow KQ and it already has been back for the rev limiter thing and some thing else with the belt, maybe it needed replaced, but he was pissed!

 

maddog

"So long as your brakes stay sealed up"...........and do they???...........they don't ever get water/muck in them and freeze up in cold weather??? I really find it amusing that the entire automotive world evolves to the superior disc brake design decades ago......yet you can not acknowledge that Honda has been dragging their feet. If the drum brakes are better as you assert........why then is Honda NOW (finally) starting to impliment disc brakes???.......Could it be that their incredible product reliability testing standards took decades to assure that they were good enough???

Also, you seem to be saying that the other manufacturers are only applying the advanced features to the very top-of-line big bore models and the other mid-sized and under 501cc machines don't enjoy the advanced features. Please explain to me then why my 400cc (actually 425cc) machine enjoys essentially all of the very same features as the biggest engine displacement machine in the line. It has the same IRS, it has the same ground clearance, it has the same long suspension travel, it has disc brakes all around, it has steel wheels, it has the same frame, CVT, 4wd system (all 4 wheels driven), instrumentation, lighting, body, mud protection, floor boards, racks (with accessory locking system), storage compartments. Essentially, my machine is the very same machine as the biggest bore in the line-up......except for the engine (but it still has a liquid cooled 4 valve). I will acknowledge that when Polaris introduced EFI to the ATV market in 2004 that they only offered it on the 700........HOWEVER, in 2006 they also give it to you on the several other models including the 500.

I think Hondas good sales figures are directly linked to their reputation for quality/reliability and obviously not because of performance/design/features/value. This is an enviable position for Honda and well earned as I've stated before. Basically it means they can get away with resting on their laurels without suffering sales decline. The question is: Is it sustainable???

I will further offer for discussion.... the motivations of progress. As an example look at what happened to aviation from its inception in the very early 1900s to the very rapid advancements made thereafter..........and what drove it. For the most part the advancement was war driven.....WWI and WWII in particular. In other words, there was a very real and immediate motivation to progress and improve. The advancement and improvement was dramatic to say the least. I don't think Honda has any motivation to progress and improve currently because they still enjoy good sales volumes. I think if sales started to slump we'd see a motivating reason for Honda to offer updating/improvement/progress........and maybe even some innovation (we certainly know their capable of it).

 

Im not ''ditching'' the KQ..Im buying the new Bomb 800 MAX [2 seater] and im ''selling'' the KQ to my neighbor..My KQ has been nothing short of a pleasure to own for the last yr.If I were'nt upgrading to the 2 seater 800,I would still own it..

 

At least BackintheSaddle understands. In the end, money dictates who is winning the war. It is about business. The problem is most people on forum sites think about riding and forget that Honda thinks about making money.

Everyone can debate until the cows come home about how long it can last. I am sure Honda management sits in the boardroom every year saying is this the year we will have to release something new to keep our market share from slipping? Nope guess not, we are still making the most money. Remember people, they are turning a big fat profit because all the R&D for most of the models was amortized years and years ago. I have to say you are an idiot if you don't believe every manufacturer is capable of building a better product than they do and every manufacturer could build any model they want. You think Polaris couldn't build a 350lb sport quad if they wanted? Do you think Honda couldn't lower the weight of the 450r down to 325 lbs?

It is all about the money and what sells. As my dad always told me, something is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If you only have one, you only need to find one person who is willing to pay more than you would be willing to accept to put a big smile on your face and extra change in your pocket. Honda has done this on a mass scale. If you were one of the people who got taken on a piece of crap quad years ago, you would understand why they won't go back again. Anyone is business will tell you it is cheaper to keep a customer than to get a new one.

Forum members have trouble accepting that they are not in the majority of buyers category. If you are an enthusiast, you are probably in a niche market. Just to give you an idea of the market, you aren't going to change it by saying negative things on a website. The majority of quad buyers do not visit ATV forums. Most barely get on the net at all.