Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
#21
11-15-2006 | 02:37 AM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
Well take it from someone who OWNS both- the 450R is a good, reliable bike, with good power (for a 4stroke) that is also a 'good' handler (has good OEM front shocks - very adjustable..not so on the rear...) However, having spent considerable time on both, i would have to be honest here and dismay all the Honda/450R loyalists and tell you that the 250R still is the better handling of the 2.
The 250R is lighter, stabler, better balanced... and as already stated, the YFZ is the better 250R replacement. its the closest thing you will buy new that will compare... and since no one else stated it (as honda did in an official press release at the time) it has also done decent at the baja - finishing 5th in the 36th annual race. for the record, the CAN-AM (BRP) ds650 is actually the better long distance desert racer (multiple baja placements and finishes)- it conquered the dakar (about 6x longer than the baja 1000). not to take anything away from its perofmances at the bajas, but I havent seen a 450R conquer the dakar...yet.
A little testament to the 250Rs reliablitly - people still enter them in the 1000 and from all the results ive read - every 250R entered has finished - and of course in the class they enter, a 250R usually wins... Im the 3rd owner of mine, it has been rebuilt only once 4yrs ago, and there is no hint of it needing another yet. plenty of power.....remarkable running machine that was well taken care of; Take care of things (proper maintenance) and they will last is the lesson here.
and let it be known that yamaha 'studied' the track dominating 250R when they made the YFZ... honda engineers should have done the same. they lost sight of what made a 250R a 250'R' in the first place - the handling. when they made the 450R, as good as its other plusses are, this KEY element was somehow lost. maybe they will finally correct this for 2008.
if i were in the market for another 450 based of what is available now - the YFZ would be it. However, kawasaki has a 450 arriving soon as well as can-am that im just curious about ( i hope it weighs apropriately for the 450 class)...
The 250R is lighter, stabler, better balanced... and as already stated, the YFZ is the better 250R replacement. its the closest thing you will buy new that will compare... and since no one else stated it (as honda did in an official press release at the time) it has also done decent at the baja - finishing 5th in the 36th annual race. for the record, the CAN-AM (BRP) ds650 is actually the better long distance desert racer (multiple baja placements and finishes)- it conquered the dakar (about 6x longer than the baja 1000). not to take anything away from its perofmances at the bajas, but I havent seen a 450R conquer the dakar...yet.
A little testament to the 250Rs reliablitly - people still enter them in the 1000 and from all the results ive read - every 250R entered has finished - and of course in the class they enter, a 250R usually wins... Im the 3rd owner of mine, it has been rebuilt only once 4yrs ago, and there is no hint of it needing another yet. plenty of power.....remarkable running machine that was well taken care of; Take care of things (proper maintenance) and they will last is the lesson here.
and let it be known that yamaha 'studied' the track dominating 250R when they made the YFZ... honda engineers should have done the same. they lost sight of what made a 250R a 250'R' in the first place - the handling. when they made the 450R, as good as its other plusses are, this KEY element was somehow lost. maybe they will finally correct this for 2008.
if i were in the market for another 450 based of what is available now - the YFZ would be it. However, kawasaki has a 450 arriving soon as well as can-am that im just curious about ( i hope it weighs apropriately for the 450 class)...
#22
11-15-2006 | 11:00 AM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
some people say the 450r is getting efi in 08 too, that would be awesome, but it would rock even more, if it was wider and had better suspension, whats up with only the 8 and 9 inches of travel? the ltr has 10 and 11 inches of travel,
a lot of people are excited about a predator 450 or a predator 525, by ktm/polaris, it would be weird seeing a polaris doing good on the track, some people say the predy 525 (if its gonna come out) will weigh around 360lbs, but i wonder how thats possible, how can a quad lost 45 lbs just by changing the engine, sounds like a load of bs to me.
i definitely hope that bomb will finally make a lightwiehgt sport quad, in the 450 class, i wouldnt care too much if it was a bit heavier, like 373lbs, but it better have a load of power from that 450 twin
a lot of people are excited about a predator 450 or a predator 525, by ktm/polaris, it would be weird seeing a polaris doing good on the track, some people say the predy 525 (if its gonna come out) will weigh around 360lbs, but i wonder how thats possible, how can a quad lost 45 lbs just by changing the engine, sounds like a load of bs to me.
i definitely hope that bomb will finally make a lightwiehgt sport quad, in the 450 class, i wouldnt care too much if it was a bit heavier, like 373lbs, but it better have a load of power from that 450 twin
#23
11-15-2006 | 11:55 AM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
Even though Honda called the 450 an "R" quad, I don't think they ever intended it to be an "out of the box" motocrosser. Hey, even the venerable 250R needs a bunch of mods before it is ready for the track. I think this is a good marketing strategy! Only a very small number of the R's sold will ever ever actually see a track. Honda knows what its customer base is, and it's the performance recreational rider. You build a track specific quad, and sure a few folks who ride around on trails will like the idea that they are on a "racer ready" machine, but the rest of us know that that machine would be poorly adapted to recreational riding.
I think all this "out of the box" racer stuff is not going to be the best thing for the industry.............
I think all this "out of the box" racer stuff is not going to be the best thing for the industry.............
#24
11-15-2006 | 12:11 PM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
Originally posted by: reconranger
Even though Honda called the 450 an "R" quad, I don't think they ever intended it to be an "out of the box" motocrosser. Hey, even the venerable 250R needs a bunch of mods before it is ready for the track. I think this is a good marketing strategy! Only a very small number of the R's sold will ever ever actually see a track. Honda knows what its customer base is, and it's the performance recreational rider. You build a track specific quad, and sure a few folks who ride around on trails will like the idea that they are on a "racer ready" machine, but the rest of us know that that machine would be poorly adapted to recreational riding.
I think all this "out of the box" racer stuff is not going to be the best thing for the industry.............
Even though Honda called the 450 an "R" quad, I don't think they ever intended it to be an "out of the box" motocrosser. Hey, even the venerable 250R needs a bunch of mods before it is ready for the track. I think this is a good marketing strategy! Only a very small number of the R's sold will ever ever actually see a track. Honda knows what its customer base is, and it's the performance recreational rider. You build a track specific quad, and sure a few folks who ride around on trails will like the idea that they are on a "racer ready" machine, but the rest of us know that that machine would be poorly adapted to recreational riding.
I think all this "out of the box" racer stuff is not going to be the best thing for the industry.............
#25
11-16-2006 | 03:46 AM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
Well, I'm going to try to do what I can to pass on tips for longer life since he doesn't 'compute'. Who can afford a computer and internet service when spending on quads like that?... LOL...
But he is really going to need the tips bad... otherwise it will be thrashed literally in no time. This is a guy who went through a DS650, in about a year I think. It needs a total engine rebuild and other misc parts.
He seems to really like the 450R so far.... and knowing the trails he rides like I do, I figured he would. The size and weight of the 450R is just better suited for the tight crap he rides. But I give him a little while and I'll bet he'll be missing the plush ride of the DS650 in the rough.
But he is really going to need the tips bad... otherwise it will be thrashed literally in no time. This is a guy who went through a DS650, in about a year I think. It needs a total engine rebuild and other misc parts.
He seems to really like the 450R so far.... and knowing the trails he rides like I do, I figured he would. The size and weight of the 450R is just better suited for the tight crap he rides. But I give him a little while and I'll bet he'll be missing the plush ride of the DS650 in the rough.
#26
11-17-2006 | 01:58 PM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
Originally posted by: OldSchoolRider
if u want to get a true "R" bike,a 1986 honda 250R is the way to go
if u want to get a true "R" bike,a 1986 honda 250R is the way to go
And as far as reliability, any motor is only as reliable as its rider. if you take care of it you wont have any problems.
#27
11-17-2006 | 02:32 PM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
thats not entirely true. jerimiah jones was still doing well on his 250r as was tim farr (who was experimenting witha hybrid 450 but if you read - he liked the 250r better). allot of the riders didnt really WANT to switch...
as i recall, the rules for atv racing were changed in favor of the 440/class and it eventually kicked the 250Rs out b/c the entrants had to be based somwhat on a production quad (of course mods are another story). 250s arent made anymore and the 440/450 class was emerging (first with the 440cc: cannondale, yamaha yfz was first a 439cc for a couple years) and honda asked the atva how commited they were to the 440 rule and would they change it to 450? they did. 450r arrived soon, the yfz eventually got bumped to 450, ltr arrived and now we await the can am and kawasaki 450s... the 450 war is on...
im not saying the 450s are bad. i have one. but it doesnt handle as good as a 250R and it never will until its redesigned. dont buy into the hype. its good that the market is advancing but call it like it is.
ask Gary Denton, (unprecedented, unequalled), 8 time (?) champ, what bike he prefers for racing...its still a 250R. He's ridden all of the 450s on a track and said that theres no way any of them would be able to hang with his 250R.
as i recall, the rules for atv racing were changed in favor of the 440/class and it eventually kicked the 250Rs out b/c the entrants had to be based somwhat on a production quad (of course mods are another story). 250s arent made anymore and the 440/450 class was emerging (first with the 440cc: cannondale, yamaha yfz was first a 439cc for a couple years) and honda asked the atva how commited they were to the 440 rule and would they change it to 450? they did. 450r arrived soon, the yfz eventually got bumped to 450, ltr arrived and now we await the can am and kawasaki 450s... the 450 war is on...
im not saying the 450s are bad. i have one. but it doesnt handle as good as a 250R and it never will until its redesigned. dont buy into the hype. its good that the market is advancing but call it like it is.
ask Gary Denton, (unprecedented, unequalled), 8 time (?) champ, what bike he prefers for racing...its still a 250R. He's ridden all of the 450s on a track and said that theres no way any of them would be able to hang with his 250R.
#28
11-17-2006 | 03:10 PM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
I would agree with most of that, however theres not hardly a stock part on most of those 250R quads they used for pro racing. Most of them were built almost entirely with higher performance after market parts, from the frame on up. Stock for stock i would take any of the newer 450 thumpers over an old 250R. And it may be lighter and handle better, but again i would say if the 250R were a superior quad, everyone except the manufacture sponsored riders would still be racing them against the 450 quads. But their not, because they want to at least be competitive.
When you ride one bike for 10 years, your not gonna like getting on a new quad.
When you ride one bike for 10 years, your not gonna like getting on a new quad.
#29
11-17-2006 | 05:15 PM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
i would agree with some of that as well, but its not really about them being 'uncompetitive' against the 450s- , the 250s are not allowed to compete anymore in the "main" classes (if you are racing- dont you want to compete where the bigger payoffs are? so you are forced to ride what is allowed, not necessarily what you want to)... which is now the 450 class...if they were still allowed i garrantee some would still be riding them.
#30
11-18-2006 | 11:05 PM
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Is the 450 really a true "R" bike?
some person said a while ago on a forum that the 450 4 stroke class would be changed to race against 450 two strokes, so it would be 2 strokes vs 4 strokes,
dont you think that would be unfair? thats like putting a zilla against a preddy, which would you choose?
i wanted to slap that person for believing that
im wondering why would anyone want a narrowing kit for the ltr450? how many more trails could you go through with a 44" quad than you could with 48" quad, and wtf is a 450 doing on the trails anyway, other than a wolverine.
some people were saying that manufacturers had reasons for not making race ready quads, i disagree, sort of
i think that 1) honda should make the 450r race ready, and the 450er the way it is now or
2) make a trx450x, just like they did converting the crf450r into the crf450x (i mentioned this already in another thread, "450r wins baja 1000.........again"
if honda doesnt do that, yamaha should, they already have a yz450f and a wr450, why dont they make the
yfz450 into a wrf450, or something like that, they could also call it a yfz450raptor
dont you think that would be unfair? thats like putting a zilla against a preddy, which would you choose?
i wanted to slap that person for believing that
im wondering why would anyone want a narrowing kit for the ltr450? how many more trails could you go through with a 44" quad than you could with 48" quad, and wtf is a 450 doing on the trails anyway, other than a wolverine.
some people were saying that manufacturers had reasons for not making race ready quads, i disagree, sort of
i think that 1) honda should make the 450r race ready, and the 450er the way it is now or
2) make a trx450x, just like they did converting the crf450r into the crf450x (i mentioned this already in another thread, "450r wins baja 1000.........again"
if honda doesnt do that, yamaha should, they already have a yz450f and a wr450, why dont they make the
yfz450 into a wrf450, or something like that, they could also call it a yfz450raptor