P700 module test results
Mar 2, 2004 | 03:30 PM
#31
Range Rover
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
P700 module test results
Originally posted by: alltoys
Prairie633,
I must say Excellent report well done.
I once stated that a higher frequency did help for top end but it only helps from a dead stop so that it will cary on to the top end almost liked a sling shot. I found that with the higher frequency of up to 1100HZ ( anything more than 1100HZ will actually revert back to its original setup and bounch up agian) it did not take from the 28* of total timing from the cdi. When the first Freedom ones came out there was an actuall decrease in top end but it helped a good deal on the botttom, they have since changed and now has a higher frequency to compete with the others. The one from DG was comparable in frequency amount but has a much cleaner wave form which helped to increase the bottom to mid range. After 30 mph a module will not show any advantage Prairie633's testing shows this. Now when it gets right down it all the modules are basicly the same and for goodness sake, all but old school.
About timing keys:
One millimeter does not give 10* of timing. 1mil will only give 4-5* of timing to get the full 10* you have to move the pickup as well. A 6* key will only give 4.4* of timing on a 4 stroke quad, on a 2 stroke it gives 6* but not on a 4 stroke period. This does not include the timing of the cams!!!!!
What choked me was the secret stuff that HL was supposed to have installed to get more out of their module and they didn't have the guts to tell anyone it hooked up to the pink wire. Right then everyone should have clued into what they were doing. Why did they not mention it was a module? Because they new they would loose sales soon as everyone found out it was a module especially a module that has a 555 timer. Anyone with some knowledge can go to Radio Shack and build one. Why not come clean, admit they had a module instead of letting everyone guess what it was. Anyway it is old news.
I applaud DG for trying to build a mapper the cdi has code that is probably to involved to manipulate. I have said in the past that a whole complete cdi is the only way it can be done succesfully. I went to after market ignitions and have not looked back. The new cdi is the best way to get an all purpose performance gain. I would send my cdi to Prairie633 to test but is on another machine right now, especially a big bore I would like to see what the gains would be.
I will have another P700 later on I will build with a big bore primarily for mud racing and hopefully a full race cdi to be installed. I have had the thought of installing a Harley 1200 in the Kawi frame but that maybe a winter project.
Thanks to Prairie633 for the testing he has done it gives food for thought.
Prairie633,
I must say Excellent report well done.
I once stated that a higher frequency did help for top end but it only helps from a dead stop so that it will cary on to the top end almost liked a sling shot. I found that with the higher frequency of up to 1100HZ ( anything more than 1100HZ will actually revert back to its original setup and bounch up agian) it did not take from the 28* of total timing from the cdi. When the first Freedom ones came out there was an actuall decrease in top end but it helped a good deal on the botttom, they have since changed and now has a higher frequency to compete with the others. The one from DG was comparable in frequency amount but has a much cleaner wave form which helped to increase the bottom to mid range. After 30 mph a module will not show any advantage Prairie633's testing shows this. Now when it gets right down it all the modules are basicly the same and for goodness sake, all but old school.
About timing keys:
One millimeter does not give 10* of timing. 1mil will only give 4-5* of timing to get the full 10* you have to move the pickup as well. A 6* key will only give 4.4* of timing on a 4 stroke quad, on a 2 stroke it gives 6* but not on a 4 stroke period. This does not include the timing of the cams!!!!!
What choked me was the secret stuff that HL was supposed to have installed to get more out of their module and they didn't have the guts to tell anyone it hooked up to the pink wire. Right then everyone should have clued into what they were doing. Why did they not mention it was a module? Because they new they would loose sales soon as everyone found out it was a module especially a module that has a 555 timer. Anyone with some knowledge can go to Radio Shack and build one. Why not come clean, admit they had a module instead of letting everyone guess what it was. Anyway it is old news.
I applaud DG for trying to build a mapper the cdi has code that is probably to involved to manipulate. I have said in the past that a whole complete cdi is the only way it can be done succesfully. I went to after market ignitions and have not looked back. The new cdi is the best way to get an all purpose performance gain. I would send my cdi to Prairie633 to test but is on another machine right now, especially a big bore I would like to see what the gains would be.
I will have another P700 later on I will build with a big bore primarily for mud racing and hopefully a full race cdi to be installed. I have had the thought of installing a Harley 1200 in the Kawi frame but that maybe a winter project.
Thanks to Prairie633 for the testing he has done it gives food for thought.
Mar 2, 2004 | 07:13 PM
#33
Range Rover
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
P700 module test results
It makes NO diffrence if it is two stroke or four stroke
the amount of timing advance depends on the diamater of the crankshaft where the key is
crank dia *pie/360 give the deg
eg 25mm*3.14/360=0.218mm per deg 1.0mm/0.218=4.66deg
not sure if the crank is 25 mm where the key sits
the amount of timing advance depends on the diamater of the crankshaft where the key is
crank dia *pie/360 give the deg
eg 25mm*3.14/360=0.218mm per deg 1.0mm/0.218=4.66deg
not sure if the crank is 25 mm where the key sits
Mar 2, 2004 | 09:48 PM
#34
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 292
Likes: 0
P700 module test results
Nova, if I'm understanding what I have read on here, the stock CDI once over 3 mph advances the timing fully to 28 degrees, but not instantaneously. I have understood it to take 3 seconds for the timing to advance fully. If that is so and you take off hard from 0 on a stock CDI, less than a second has elapsed once you have reached 10 mph and you would have hit around 30 mph by the time the stock CDI finally advanced the timing fully, or after 3 seconds. That's assuming the timing is a 0 at 0 mph and starts advancing once you pass 3 mph. The timing at 10 mph may be less than 10 degrees and advancing as you are acceleration. But if the module fools the CDI into thinking you are already going over 3 mph and allows the timing to advance fully at 0 mph, then as you accelerate past 10 mph, you are already at full timing from 10 mph through 30 mph. That's just the way I'm understanding it and why the module affects 10-50 mph.
By my same understanding, if you are doing a rolling start from 10 mph for more than three seconds at 10 mph, the timing on the stock is no longer retarded and can advance as quick as the module will let it. Of course, I could be completely all wrong, too.
By my same understanding, if you are doing a rolling start from 10 mph for more than three seconds at 10 mph, the timing on the stock is no longer retarded and can advance as quick as the module will let it. Of course, I could be completely all wrong, too.
Mar 2, 2004 | 10:39 PM
#36
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,776
Likes: 0
P700 module test results
Nova, here is the actual curve. I read the 15*,20*,25* off a graph, so I could be off by 50 rpm or something like that.
Stock normal map (or normal timing curve)
5* below 1500rpm
5* at 1500rpm, ramping linearly up to 28* at 4000
10* at 2000
15* at 2600
20* at 3200
25* at 3700
28* at 4000
Holds 28* until 6500 and then stupidly retards the timing to 20* at 8000 (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb). The retard is a series of linear slopes.
The reverse timing map (or reverse timing curve)
5* below 1500rpm
5* at 1500rpm, ramping linearly up to 10* at 2500
10* at 2500 Hold 10* from 2500 all the way up to rev limit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What some of you guys are having a tough time grasping, is that if you start from a standing stop (with no module), your CDI starts out on the REVERSE timing map. You are stuck with that 10* peak momentarily. If you go over 3mph, the stock CDI will take 3 seconds to smoothly switch from the 10degree max of the reverse curve to the normal timing curve.
Prairie633 has been trying to pound this simple concept into our thick skulls that all a module ever does is prevent the CDI from starting on the reverse map. That is the whole reason that a 650/700 with a module wil take off faster than one without if they started from a stop. It is also the whole reason that if you have been rolling at 3mph for 3 seconds that a 650/700 without a module will accelerate as fast as one with a module.
That 3 second rule means a whole lot if you are accelerating from a dead stop with a module , it means you have drastically retarded timing compared to a 650/700 with a module.
That 3 second rule is the whole reason that some of the other module makers started claiming that their modules held more advance longer than the DG one did. When in reality they were all doing the same thing.
The actual amount of timing retard depends on how high your 650/700 revs in 3 seconds, which is related to your speed via the CVT springs and weights. It kinda works against people that have mods. The more you mod, the faster you go in those 3 seconds, so your timing was retarded to an even higher RPM than someone without mods due to that 3 second rule.
I couldn't figure out why my machine seemed to hesitate so bad from a takeoff, but if I rolled at 5mph I have plenty of power. Now I have a module and that stupid hesitation is gone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything numbers that Prairie633 shows in his test results proves what he said about the normal map and reverse map is true. The DG tech has long been saying what Prairie633 said. He said that stuff I wrote here in that forum that starts with a "K".
Stock normal map (or normal timing curve)
5* below 1500rpm
5* at 1500rpm, ramping linearly up to 28* at 4000
10* at 2000
15* at 2600
20* at 3200
25* at 3700
28* at 4000
Holds 28* until 6500 and then stupidly retards the timing to 20* at 8000 (dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb). The retard is a series of linear slopes.
The reverse timing map (or reverse timing curve)
5* below 1500rpm
5* at 1500rpm, ramping linearly up to 10* at 2500
10* at 2500 Hold 10* from 2500 all the way up to rev limit
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What some of you guys are having a tough time grasping, is that if you start from a standing stop (with no module), your CDI starts out on the REVERSE timing map. You are stuck with that 10* peak momentarily. If you go over 3mph, the stock CDI will take 3 seconds to smoothly switch from the 10degree max of the reverse curve to the normal timing curve.
Prairie633 has been trying to pound this simple concept into our thick skulls that all a module ever does is prevent the CDI from starting on the reverse map. That is the whole reason that a 650/700 with a module wil take off faster than one without if they started from a stop. It is also the whole reason that if you have been rolling at 3mph for 3 seconds that a 650/700 without a module will accelerate as fast as one with a module.
That 3 second rule means a whole lot if you are accelerating from a dead stop with a module , it means you have drastically retarded timing compared to a 650/700 with a module.
That 3 second rule is the whole reason that some of the other module makers started claiming that their modules held more advance longer than the DG one did. When in reality they were all doing the same thing.
The actual amount of timing retard depends on how high your 650/700 revs in 3 seconds, which is related to your speed via the CVT springs and weights. It kinda works against people that have mods. The more you mod, the faster you go in those 3 seconds, so your timing was retarded to an even higher RPM than someone without mods due to that 3 second rule.
I couldn't figure out why my machine seemed to hesitate so bad from a takeoff, but if I rolled at 5mph I have plenty of power. Now I have a module and that stupid hesitation is gone.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Everything numbers that Prairie633 shows in his test results proves what he said about the normal map and reverse map is true. The DG tech has long been saying what Prairie633 said. He said that stuff I wrote here in that forum that starts with a "K".
Mar 2, 2004 | 10:58 PM
#38
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 2,776
Likes: 0
P700 module test results
No, that is like shining a flashlight in a blind man's eyes. He wont see anything.
The Aftermarket CDI does not have any retarded maps, nor does it know what the speed sensor input is even for.
The aftermarket CDI will only do one thing. No matter what you do, you still get that one timing curve.
The only way to affect it is with an offset crank key or some kind of electronic device that messes with the crank position sensor timing. That is not only sophisticated but also expensive.
The Aftermarket CDI does not have any retarded maps, nor does it know what the speed sensor input is even for.
The aftermarket CDI will only do one thing. No matter what you do, you still get that one timing curve.
The only way to affect it is with an offset crank key or some kind of electronic device that messes with the crank position sensor timing. That is not only sophisticated but also expensive.
