a quick look at the KQ forums will reveal many drawbacks (talk about one dimentional systems). the KQ is a good bike, but the EFI hamstrings any serious attemp to get it to keep up with the prarie 700. (my 650i gives my buddies KQ fits).

the only practical advantage of EFI that i can see is fuel economy and emission control.

but the two biggest selling points of the Kawi is low cost and power. i wouldn't trade that just so i can say "650 EFI"

i have ridden with several EFI atvs, and none of those demonstrated any advantage of ATV EFI. i live in the northern rockies and ride to over 10,000 feet all the time. no problem. cold starts are also no problem. they report better fuel economy, but they carry spare gas like everyone else.

EFI could be better in every respect, but the electronic systems that support the EFI are the headache. when those systems evolve, we will all happily have EFI on our atvs, but that day is not today.

monty

 

I also think the efi thing is a lot of hype. I have owned efi on the 700 kq. Efi is supposed to be better than carbs for these reasons. #1=better starting, #2 no rejet at diff. altitudes, #3 better mpg. I am sure there are more but those are the most important ones. The one thing that I have noticed with my brute forces is when they are jetted right, they run as close to an efi as a carbed machine will. I have never had a starting issue. Although not as good mpg as my efi kq got. My 650i is pretty good. With the efi you are going to have a harder time modding. Also the efi is going to cost more to be on a machine. With this said. I will keep my carbed brutes and all you people wanting and waiting for efi can have it. There is a reason kawi has not put it on there quads yet.

 

The big benefits of EFI are:
No choke
No rejet for altitude

If you ride at the same altitude all the time, efi would probably not be that big of a deal, but I ride in TX (500 feet), NM (8,000-10,000 ft) and CO (up to 13,000 ft) and for me rejetting is not an option (too much work on the BF).

EFI would be great!

 

i can show at least twenty pics of my brute over 10,000 feet with stock jets and no problem. i carry lotsa stuff and usually ride 2-up. i have pics of of mountain goats below me taken from the seat of my brute. life is good with carbs.

i will admit, the 650i is less sensitive to jetting issues than most, tho.

the atv EFI currently in use seems very primitive to me. it is evolving. the Grizz 700 with it's (somewhat) user programmable efi is a step foreward i think. when we can hook up a USB chord to our laptops and dial in whatever fuel map we want, i'll want it too. not yet tho.

i realize that when Kawi wants to do it, they will. my opinion don't mean squat. but when it happens, i am willing to bet there will be some people missing the "old Brute"

monty

 

It is. It's apparently from what I've been able to determine very, very rudimentary indeed. It isn't able to deal with very many variables or really do everything that EFI should. They don't seem to have many data sensors to feed info back to the computer which in turn makes adjustments to the injectors. The Systems on ATVs just don't do much of that. They're very much fist generation. They precisely controlling fuel and air mixtures and increasing mileage and doing a few other EFI things but they're not living up to the promise of more advanced EFI systems.

Someone more technically proficient correct me if I'm wrong in my assessment here but from what I'm seeing the EFI systems they're running on ATVs are little more that computer controlled carburetors. Well, throttle bodies but you get my point. They're not taking sensor inputs from various sources (exhaust, o2,tps, map, temp, fuel, etc) and adjusting the injectors based on those parameters.

 

The current EFI systems being used are not self adjusting. Hence the need for fuel programmers or "mappers" like the Dobeck for example. The current systems do not adjust for altitude, temp, or a change in air flow like an intake mod or exhaust. The most advanced units I've seen are the ones on the Suzuki LTR450. They are equipped with an air intake temp sensor but to my knowledge are still not self adjusting. In my mind the EFI systems currently avaliable are a far cry from what most of the industry make them out to be. However if I were to by a new sport bike it would be a model with EFI just because it's much easier to tune after you do mods. With the yoshi fuel programmers you push a few buttons and your done with the Dobeck you adjust a few screws and your done. Anyone who has rejetted several times tuning after installing mods will tell you how quick that gets old. As far the utilities, if I planned on leaving it stock there is no real advantage other than fuel economy to the EFI models currently avaliable.

 

I know that as I'm evaluating new utility machines for a future purchase (probably this fall) I can't see myself buying something without EFI even with the limitations of the current first generation systems being offered. Well, that and all the top big bore machines I'm looking at all come with it.

 

[quote]
The current EFI systems being used are not self adjusting. Hence the need for fuel programmers or "mappers" like the Dobeck for example. The current systems do not adjust for altitude, temp, or a change in air flow like an intake mod or exhaust. The most advanced units I've seen are the ones on the Suzuki LTR450. They are equipped with an air intake temp sensor but to my knowledge are still not self adjusting. In my mind the EFI systems currently avaliable are a far cry from what most of the industry make them out to be. [quote]


I can't believe you just said that EFI's are not self adjusting, that's exactly what they do. Of course there are parameters to any efi system. They are usually set up to operate within the known working environment, such as sea level to 14,000 feet.

A mapper is only needing to reprogram the system to allow for substantial mods. That's the case with any efi system, even automotive applications.
This is because the efi is programmed to operate with the engine as it was configured at the factory. If you (insert rad mod here) you will have reprogram.

Monty,
I have had mine above 10,000 ft. several times too. I wouldn't say it was "no problem". Judging from the mods on your BF (10" automotive fan and an oil cooler) it sounds like it runs a little hot. You know, a lean mixture would cause that. In fact, a lean mixture would cause it to run better at high altitudes too. You might want to look into it.

 

it's jetted perfectly for my elevation. plugs nice medium "paper bag" brown. starts right up cold (with choke) and idles fine cold (without choke). mine would get hot riding 2-up up a steep climb for miles on a hot day before the cooling mods. i know all about dialing in a v-twin (i ride a harley, too) and haven't had to touch this one. i havent done a plug read at 10,000', but without a problem, i see no need to. like you say, likely a little rich up there, but not enough to stutter or foul plugs, and still a big power surplus. my home elevation is 4500 feet. i'm sure if i went much lower, it would be lean, but not here.

if offered free EFI, i'd take carbs. there will be a day that EFI will rule, but not today.

monty

 

If EFI is such a bad idea, why doesn't Kawi or any other applicable OEM promote the heck of their "Superior Carbuerated Technology". The answer is simple....they don't. You won't find it highlighted in the brochures, displayed on posters at the dealer, or mentioned positively in reviews. The day of the carb has gone by the wayside. Very few can appreciate the carb in this day and age. Just as in the automotive motorsports industry, the carb caters to the weekend racer who isn't concerned about fuel economy, long term reliability, and smoothness through the powerband in any weather condition as much as the ability to tweak with something affordable. Remember how "rebuilding a carb" used to be common if you wanted a vehicle to hit 100,000 miles? When was the last time you chatted with the guys at work and one of them said "I gotta get my EFI rebuilt"?

If EFI were thousands more, some arguments might be valid. Along those lines.....Honda introduced the new Rancher 420 this year. In the process, they added 70cc (350cc to 420cc), EFI, front disk brakes, and other new features...all at a price increase of $200. The manufacturing costs to produce both systems are comparable. The money comes from the development costs, since an EFI has to be built engine and application specific, as opposed to a carb, which comes from a box and bolts on.

I have to admit what I have heard is a bit troubling from some of you. When I hear someone say, "if offered free EFI, i'd take carbs", I can't help believe that you were drinking some special Kawi Kool Aid and not offering a truly unbiased opinion comparing the two. I can appreciate everyone's opinion, but can you honestly tell me that if Kawi only offered an EFI Brute Force, you would shop around? All I have to say is you better stock up now, because in a few years you won't be able to find one.