As you can tell, the issue is one that has many facets, and opinions. I think it safe to say that there is no real good answer. Although in one hand, we have the regulations, and in many sates laws in place that would dictate the size by age, we are seeing in some cases a much more enlightened view with focus on fit. That is a good thing. We also have states with nothing on the books.

I keep coming back to the mental state of the child... and that is where parental discretion comes to play. We as parents have a huge responsibility in this regard.. and must do some pretty heavy soul searching to find that answer. In spike's case, knowing the regimine he puts his kids through in their training.. I can feel pretty comfortable with that... unfortunately, there are other parents that lay down their plastic, unload the machine, pat their child on the head and tell them to go have fun... and walk back in the house. Those are the ones that the laws are in place because of their actions.

The bottom line is no matter how much attention we place on their training, or monitoring their actions, kids are going to get hurt.. are going to have accidents etc.... I guess by limiting their speed, and mechanical options, a good argument can be made that you are reducing the risks. It is a toughie for sure.. I don't see a clear answer.

I do get uncomfortable with kids being put on bigger machines though... All I ask is that as a parent, you THINK the process through. After all, little Bubba may look like they can handle it physically, but you have to look into their mind, and analyse their mental state too. We don't need any more guilt trips.... or dead kids...

 

Another piont is now we have these parents who let their kids ride these bigger bikes, then they get hurt or worse killed and want to sue everyone and their mother for wrongful death or something. Then go on some holyer than thou crusade to change laws or try to get our toys banned (like 3-wheelers) and mess things up for the rest of us who make better judgement decisions.

 

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I'm still baffled why factories won't (or not allowed) to install more safety items on our minis. From BEFORE and AFTER comparisons, making a mini wider does make a world of difference. Even 1.5" wider on the front makes them less tippy. Adding daytime running lights makes a world of difference. Adding a guard / lip on the running boards to stop feet from slidding off do make a world of difference. Installing a skid plate for bush & trail riding makes a difference. Installing more suspension travel with "lbs range adjustible springs and valved shocks" would make a world of difference. Making all mini with mandatory cross member handle bars with padding makes a difference. And I can tell you, a proper geomentry designed foot brake makes a world of difference as well. Make them lighter with aluminum frames would make a world of difference. Make brake handles smaller / for smaller hands helps as well. Install a rear bumper / push bar to allow someone to push the mini out of the mud (instead of going face first into the rear muffler / rear tire area) is a safety improvement as well.

Add more cost to each mini???? The adjustible suspension would. The other improvement items would be "very little" cost. If one is pumping out 1,000+ minis every month down the assembly line, these added safety items would add very little cost. If wondering, I used to do statistics (yes, I can make stats look negative too) & unit measurements in one of my old jobs. After a stamping plant is originally setup, pumping out 1,000+ minis dramatically lowers the overall cost of initial setup. Thus, these "next generation" safety improved minis would be will worth the extra cost. Say $50 - $100 to the consumer??? For all of the above safety improvements for $50-$100 more on "the average" mini, I'd go for it.


Something to think of...

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This thread has been one of the most productive that i have seen on this website. Lots of good opinion and advice here. My biggest concern is the effect of a quad rolling over or flipping over on a young person. There is 2 parts to that concern. loss of control, and how much does the quad weigh. looking at the 70-90cc range, we are talking 220-250 pounds of weight possibly being exerted on a kids head, or their relatively soft ribcage.

they need a spell check on this forum.

 

As most of you may know a 87 TRX 70 has no suspension just bouncey tires. Making them more stable is super cheap. All you have to do is widen its stance. Alot of kids ATV's have off set rims in the front(installed to the narrow side). All I did was reverse them and it made the front end about 6" wider, I never did an actual measurement. It was a noticable difference though. You can still get to the valve stem easily enough just by turning them all the way to one side or the other. For the back end I made 2.5" spacers out of aluminum. It is pretty easy to do yourself. But shouldn't cost too much to have made at a machine shop if you give them the specs you need. I just made a pattern from the rear hubs. Before I did this they where tipping the bike almost everytime they turned with just alittle speed. Now it is 100x better. Still tips, but really have to be on it and turn hard. Kids only know how to turn one way for the first few years. Hard left or hard right. They're still learning you don't have to always do that.

Just my .02

 

For adding the majority of safety items in an oversees factory from an automated stamping plant and paying labor at $2.00 / hour, bet the final "bundled cost" if pumping out 1000+ minis would be $50.00 - $75.00 total!!! Think mass volume discount by mass production. If individual parts had to replace each item, then yes, $50 for lights, $200+ for wider A-Arms, $40 for padded steering bar, etc. But if bundled and mass produced, these items cost pennis "at the source".

BTW: I love your idea of a poll. That's a great idea....

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I never could understand why the manufactures didn't build the mini's with more safety features either. When we were looking for my son his first quad we decided on the Bombardier Ds50 because of several safety features. It had full length floor boards preventing a childs foot from getting into one of the wheels, it had the padded cross bar, the front bumper is angled down under the quad a little which lets it ride up on something instead of just coming to a fast hard stop (it does eventually stop just not as abruptly). There is some inprovements they could have mad though like better brakes instead on the drum brakes. They work ok but once the kid starts getting a little heavier the braking distance really increases. They could have a better suspension also with a little better shocks. All in all the DS50 did good for my son. Now I'm gonna go back on the oversized issue. The kid I saw at the riding park blasting around on a banshee was riding the crap out of it. He seemed to be skilled for his age and even better than some adults I have seen. What really got my attention was when he went by on one pass and hit a bump. The kids legs were to short for him to stand up and take some of the jolt with his legs and when he hit the bump his but came about a foot off the seat. I thought he was going over the handle bars but he mangaed to get it back under control. That little mishap slowed him down for about ten minutes then he was back to ripping and roaring. Sure he was able to reach all the controls and had his feet flat footed on the floor boards but he was short to stand and absorb any of the bumps so it would be easy for him to be tossed over the handle bars. There are parents out there who take the time to drill proper riding tecniques into their kids and that great. These kids will grow up riding safely and most likely raise their kids the same way if we still have atv's then. But there are parents like someone mentioned above that just turn there kids loose with no supervision. Ever if you supervise their riding sooner or later they will get out of your site and hopefully that is when their parents words will ring in their head. Best way I can tell you to decide on which atv to get your kids is look the atv over very closely. Then look at your kids and imagine them layed up in a hospital. I know that sounds rough but if you love your kids your common since will tell you if the atv is to big. At least for most parents, there are those with no comon since.

 

Some of ou younger members may not remember this far back... but here is the skinny on the guidelines etc.

Way back when, it was the FACTORIES that came up with the guidelines... not the government. And they were transitioning from the three wheeler world, to a four wheeled ATV. Many of the classes of machines were developed at this time too, and as a means of apeasing many different factions, things like headlights on minis, top speeds etc were developed. The width issue was decided so that the machine could be carried in a pickup or station wagon... and remember that with 10 MPH being the top speed standard, they could get away ti poor suspensions, no lights etc. (The fear was kids would be out after dark)

Now jump to today.. the machines are much better designs, better suspensions, faster capable motors etc. AND our kids are biger for their age than they were then too. The problem is that the Guidelines have not had a major overhaul to keep up with the changes over time. When congress and other lawmakers started to field coomplaints about kids getting hurt... (Probably because todays machines are exceeding the original design specifications) the first thing they refer back to is the CPSC guidelines as a model for local legislation and policy. Because it is the only source of information available for many to go by.

I think it is safe to say that they need revamping.. and everyone agrees with that. We also know from hard won experience that the design specifications from years back are outdated. We NEED wider designs... We NEED daytime running lights on Minis. Those would greatly improve safety and impact favorably the injury statistics that drive the train these days.

Retro Rocket, your concerns about weight are valid concerns, although given the current state of design, I doubt that they could make a large enough dent in teh over all weight. In addition, the crash dynamis of an ATV are such that the machine and rider tend to follow the same paths when crashing, not like a dirt bike where they typically travel in different directions. This same path dynamic is what gets our kids hurt. You can mitigate that somewhat with gear like helmets, neck rolls and chest protectors etc... but making sure they wear it all the time is just as important. The number one modification on anyone's list should be to widen the minis before you do anything else. If you increase the speed, it is even more important.

One of the biggest challenges we face as a sport is to convince the powers that be, that the guidelines really could stand some updating... and this time include enthusiasts in the mix.. not some engineer, manufacturer or doctor... that way we can ensure that some sanity is maintained.

After all, we have a ton of data that has been gathered since their inception.. only problem is, we are very good at gathering the statistics, but horrible when it comes to learning from our mistakes and adjusting accordingly.