This seems to be one of the most controversial topics on this forum.

I see people attacking each other (myslef included) on most threads like this....

In "most" cases a 6 yr old will be able to handle the responsibilites of riding an ATV better than a 4 yr old....If that is the case then a 10 yr old will handle an ATV better than a 6 yr old, so why not raise the limit? If that is done why not change the limit to 16 yrs old or 18 yrs old? Is it more dangerous than giving a drivers license to a teenager?

Instead of pointing fingers and placing blame....Let's accept the fact that it is going to happen and how can we minimize the risk. How about suggestions other than saying don't do it....While that may be seem like the all curing answer...it is not practical and can't be enforced effectively.

Parents must be trusted to make good decisions for their children and they can do that if they are educated on how to help their child develop into a safe rider at a young age....What would help educate the mass instead of fights on forum boards??

Where do we start?

If parents had to take a brief written test that outlines all of the responsibilites and dnagers of riding an ATV? I know if you want to buy certain type of animal that you need to have a license, which is just answering a few questions about the breed to make sure you are aware of the responsibilites of owning the breed. Many high schools show students films on the results of drunk driving? Why not include a DVD with each children's ATV showing the real dangers of riding at 4 or 6 or 16 yrs of age??

My suggestions may not be great ideas, but where do we start to help educate and not dictate??

I will also ask the question again...one that nobody has really answered

Why does the AMA sanction and promote racing to 4 yr olds? Obviously, the kids have to learn before they are 4 yrs old to participate??? Why not attack them for this? Why don't they start at age 6 like the recomendations on the ATVs? Are they purposely putting our children in harm's way???

I am not against the AMA in anyway(my son participates at the local track)....Just wanted to bring up this point? Why is 4 yrs old not accepted? The AMA seems to think it is the right age to start racing?

My son started riding when he was 3 yrs old, but he was also taught the fundamentals and not just go, along with with speed restrictors and the tethered kill switch that I held in my hand. He always wears full protective gear and is always supervised by an adult. I made the decision to let him ride based on his ability to handle the responsibility with my supervision. This is my decision to make...Please don't go off into deep end saying.."it's my kid so I guess I should be able to jump out of a plane with him"...."since it is my kid and I get to make the decision so why can't I".....This is the extreme comparison and really doesn't put the risk of injury into perspective in regards to the comparison.


I do agree that many parents are not aware of the real dangers and don't comprehend that just one time can lead to the last time......


I welcome all constructive ideas...Please don't post if you are going insult or be destructive

Let's find a way to educate and not dictate.

 

I’d like to see parents be able to make the decision of when to put children on a ATV also. I’d like to see some kind of benchmark be available to parents so they would have a framework to measure against in determining when their child is “ready” to take on that role and responsibility.

If there were a generally accepted “standard” to help parents make the best decision I think they would want to consider it – wouldn’t they? I sure would.

There are some specific “proper fit” guidelines that help ensure the ability to properly apply the brakes, balance the machine and “operationaly fit” the ATV. Those would be a good reference for parents to use IMO.

Lets say that the best minds in child development came together and said “generally children need to have these A,B,C cognitive and functional skills to ride a ATV and these are typically achieved by X years old - that would be a FABULOUS tool for parents would it not??

Hey – Guess what? They did that! Its in the CPSC guidelines already!

What’s really being asked is if there isn’t another answer that satisfies a parents justification to put children on ATV’s outside of the already established standards.

Many people consider the definition of insanity in doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. I must be insane.

When looking at the reality of whether these guidelines are correct or appropriate one only has to consider that 90% of the children ATV fatalities and serious medical injures originated from children operating ATV’s outside of the CPSC guidelines.

So you have a exceptional 4 year old that fits the machine and appears to be real sharp in handling it. Well, the extreme skydiving analogy was meant to highlight the flaw in the parents logic. Aka does society want ALL parents making these decisions for there child? I had a freind allowing his 6 year old to drive a car on the city streets - becuase "he could".

I think you have to admit that there are some parents gifted with the ability to reproduce that you would not want to leave your children with over the weekend. And they – have the ability to purchase an youth ATV also.

So where do you draw the line? At 6 year olds driving cars? Parents giving 16 year olds beer? Skydivers freefalling with infants under their jumpsuits? Society has limits. If we re-draw the limits – what do we base that on differently then the current guidelines and how does that get measured for compliance? I do not want a 6 year old driving a car! So how do you measure “ready” differently than what’s already been done?

And I'm serously interested in what ideas people might have.

 

This is a much better approach to the subject than I have seen in the past, but while your points are valid please leave your thoughts open on the subject due to something you mentioned


Who Dat Your post stated---
"Lets say that the best minds in child development came together and said “generally children need to have these A,B,C cognitive and functional skills to ride a ATV and these are typically achieved by X years old - that would be a FABULOUS tool for parents would it not??

Hey – Guess what? They did that! Its in the CPSC guidelines already! "


The key word that I see in your statement is "typically"......This does not pertain to all kids, which is my point....I don't think all children under 6 yrs old should be on an ATV and I certainly don't believe because the child is 6 yrs old that they should be allowed to ride an ATV.

Can you accept that "some" "non-typical" kids under 6 yrs of age can handle the responsibility and in the same token admit that some "some" "typical" 6+ yr olds can't handle the reponsibility of riding an ATV.

I do believe in warning parents of the serious risk of injury and/or death for a child "OF ANY AGE" when riding an ATV.


Who Dat---I know you have strong "valuable" thoughts in regards to this subject, but can you touch on the AMA subject and why nobody else besides myself mentions it and why nobody answers me?

As far as I know the AMA is well respected and not a target of many attacks....They promote safety and family fun in a responsible atmosphere.

Why does their idea of a 4 yr old racing not carry more weight than the CPSC guidelines??? Which of the two has more experience with hands on racing?



My point is that all kids are not "typical" .....Yes the guideline that the CPSC has put together is invaluable for the public, but let's call it what it is "a guideline", not the absolute answer for all cases.


Can you see my point now? I see your point and agree that most kids are not prepared for riding ATVs before 6 yrs old, but I also think that some are.

 

A good friend of mine returned from military recall and purchased both a 50cc dirt bike and a 90cc ATV.. He has sons 5 & 6 years old. I think his experience is a good microcosm for discussion. After minimal instruction on the ATV 6 year old Jr. put on his helmet - grabbed both grips – gave it the gas and went at full throttle in a straight line for about 100 yards before striking the side of his recently purchased bright red mini-van at a speed slightly higher then the very athletic father could run. X-rays revealed a broken clavicle.

Next came the 5 year old on the dirt bike. Fully decked out in a complete “crash proof suit” helmet, shoulder pads, chest protector, crash pants, boots, gloves etc etc the complete works. The kid made it about – 9 feet and dumped it. This was repeated about 10 times. And then again on 2nd day. On the 3rd day he made it – maybe 50 feet. That was it - he walked away from it for the entire summer. The following spring he got on it and road it like he had been on it all his life. Hes been riding it like the wind ever since.

ATV Lesson Learned:
You can get even a monkey to hang onto the handle bars of a ATV and squeeze the throttle. Because it rides on 4 wheels the only thing that’s going to stop it is a solid object or lack of fuel. Even after weeks of watching my own daughter circle the house she was distracted and went straight into a tree she had past 400 times before. Minimal skills = accident looking for a place to happen.

OK – heres my opinion to your AMA question
The dirt bike has a built in “proper fit” and cognitive skills test. If the child doesn’t have the proper fit – he tips over just as soon as you let go. If they lack the reach or size to operate the controls or the skill set to multi-task the bike and balance, steer, and manage the throttle – hes’ down. Game over. And they don’t seem to build up a high head of steam before they are down either. My opinion is based on this theory – some kids have it – other kids will – someday.

So why the difference in public opinion? That’s the easy question here. The difference is that there are NOT 100+ kids being killed each year – or 44,000 taken to emergency rooms due to mini-motorcycle accidents. The tree falls in the forest thing – nobody notices….You put 110 dirt bike fatalities up on the evening news and watch what happens with that!

All kids under 6???
My personal opinion is that there is 100% certainty that there are children under 6 years old who have the proper fit and cognitive skills to ride a youth sized ATV. I will argue about being to big for a 90cc as we parents in our neighbor hood are seen riding them from time to time – no matter how careful we are…lol

The question remains – how do we measure which kids have it and which kids don’t. And how do we put that into a standard or recommendation that is a principle that is “normally” true? – What do we use other then the current highly peer-reviewed decision of child development professionals all across the country?

In todays world you cannot say “this atv product is appropriate for children under six years old if they don’t suck their thumb, have temper tantrums, crap their pants, poke others with sticks, are able to stay focused, can stack blocks more then 10 high, can balance on one foot, play jump rope and know how to count to 100.” The lawsuits would be horrendous. The entire system is based on standards that “reasonable” parents should know and the what “reasonable” skill sets childern should have at a certain age to cope with. Ie. 16 for a drivers license, 21 to drink alcohol, 38 to be president etc. Age is the generally accepted methodology to determine “average” cognitive skill sets – multi-tasking, situational awareness, reason, judgment, identify right from wrong, danger vs. risk etc etc. And the best of the best expert professionals agree that "6" is the magic number. And " 6 " is what most states are adopting as their law.

So I do "see" your point. But how does the non-ATV knowledgeable parent make the correct decision? Based on what?

I love it when the "old standards" "don't fit" the current trends - How many people objected to the urban-skills alternative testing expereiment? How many ho's does pimp bad dog have in his crib if he gets 2 ho's a week for 6 months? New Math? New standards? I think the old math test was just fine. But some people dont think that I'm being very fair.

I was at Gander Mountain on Saturday. A young man was looking at the youth ATV's. I asked how old the child was that he was buying it for and he replied "3". After some general questions I asked how his son would fit the machine he was looking at and he said it didn't matter - he wasnt going to waste money on one of the little ones as everyone knows that kids dont shrink and his son would grow into it. I asked if he owned or had atv expereince and his answer was no - but he wanted something for his son to ride as he wasn't home much and wanted something to keep him occupied. I asked him to talk to a salesman about his size theory - I said a short prayer to myself and walked away.

So if anyone has a really good answer as to how to help parents decide - other then whats already been done - I'd sure would like to hear it. I'll buy lunch for the best one.

 

I agree that guidelines are the answer, but those guidelines must be based on more factors than just age. I think the ideal situation would be a system of training and testing to qualify an under 16 or 18 rider on a particular size range of quad. I know that some states have some form of testing programs but most only gloss over the basics - you can only do so much in two to four hours.

I would like to see a testing program that is a combination of a test at home course supervised by a parent with final qualifications by a certified instructor. To work, parents would need some basic instructions to act as guidelines to take their child step by step through increasingly more challenging manuvers. I know that we had a couple of training books - we either got them as part of the purchase of a quad or from a safety course - but they were a good starting point to teach our kids to ride. A more comprehensive guide with some detailed at home 'tests' would help a parent supervise their child up through the levels of ATV riding skills. Rather than use an age based system it would be skill based and used to not only dictate the size of quad but also types of trails and level of supervision.

I expect that I'll draw the ire of many of our younger forum members, but very few teen atvers shoud be riding unsupervised. There is just too much of that 'invincible' feeling, especially if the teen is riding something larger than a low powered kids quad.

The problem with quoting the old CSPC guidelines is that they are so obviously flawed that the parts that do have merit are ignored by anyone who disagrees with them. In my opinion, the 'no riders under six' guideline is a good one as it is true that very few kids less than six years old can handle a gas powered quad. Yes, I know - there are some prodogy atvers out there who are more cooridinated and are larger but at that age, they are the exception. At the other end of the scale is the fact that very few fourteen and fifteen year olds can even safely fit on a 90cc kids quad. Unless the manufacturers choose to market a Z250 size quad with a 90cc engine, this CSPC limit is the obvious choice to ridicule and ignore the guidelines.

There is no perfect solution. While I tend to preach to let parents train their kids and decide just what ATV they are capable of riding I also realize that some parents out there are basically idiots. I don't say this as bashing and I am not pointing to anyone on this forum but I've seen them on the trails - Two or three kids all under 12 riding on a 300 or larger machine with safety gear consisting of a pair of shorts and tennis shoes. Mom or dad are either riding further back along the trail somewhere or are sitting a few miles way at the truck. So anyway, I realize that even a good, comprehensive parent guided training will be passed over by many.

Unfortunately, every time there is an ATV accident involving a child, fingers are pointed and referenced to the CSPC guidelines - justified in many cases BTW. But each child injury brings us closer and closer to a total ban on Kids use of ATV's.

Jaybee

 

This has been a great conversation with you WhoDat....I bet this type of info transfer will help save a child from injury and the message from both sides won't be lost in the banter of choice words.

Thank you for taking the time to be so informative on this thread.

If you don't mind I would like to touch on the AMA/ATVA racing for 4 year olds.....You mentioned dirtbikes, but both group sanction and promote 4 yr olds racing on ATVs as well...even though factory recomendations say 6 is the magic number. In fact they offer 2 classes for 4-6 yr olds on 50cc ATVs, which one of them was added recently.

What is your take on their promotion and expanded classes offered for ages under 6 years?


I was wondering how many of those that are used in your death/injury statistics were riding the right size quad, had the correct protective gear on and we supervised by a responsible adult. I am sure there is no data linking these things, but I wonder how skewed that statistic is because of the lack of one or all of those 3 things? Just something to think about. Also how many more kids are riding ATVs now in comparison to the past....

The more people involved in a sport the greater chance of an injury, but the ratio of participants to the number of injuries has to be factored to see if more people are getting injured or a greater percentage of people are getting injured. There is a difference. I don't have the facts here, but you may and I am really interested in the ratio of injuries in comparison to the growth of the sport. From what I read it seems like ATVs are one of the fastest growing areas in the offroad world.

But I do agree with you that most 6 yr olds are better prepared for riding an atv than a child that is younger.

 

Jaybee brings up a good idea - training and testing. In Minnesota we do that with 12-15 year olds so they can ride larger then 90cc quads. And its a fairly comprehensive home study/computer based training tool that covers things like how to turn around on hills, cross water, what is proper safety gear and about 12 hours of other study and multiple chioce testing including some envirimental impact issues and of course the youth ATV laws.

I have asked several friends to see how well this worked with 8-9 year olds and its a complete disaster. Maybe the material needs be be re-written into cartoon auto-bots or something more age specific as the end results are more typicaly the child refusing to participate.

And when we are talking about children under six ..... they don't test to well at anything I've ever seen.

Its more like herding cats then it is anything else.

 

It is refreshing to not be in a combative discussion for me as well. Lets savor it for as long as it lasts.

All good questions -

(1) Personally I believe that organized, controlled, and directly supervised operations of ATV's by youth who "fit" the machine and can properly operate the controls is a GREAT thing. I have reservations about this being customary for the average 4-5 year old. But for the exceptional ones with the cognitive skills to be successful with it - fortunate are the parents and the kids who get to do this. When parameters such as a closed and managed course, appropriate challenge levels and direct adult supervision by knowledgeable adults are injected into the formula you will get different incident results.

(2) I have some of that information – 90% of the children killed or injured on ATV’s are riding ATV’s larger then recommended by the CPSC. In my state I get the accident statistics and helmet use is noted in all reported accidents – but people lie to protect their liability for insurance reasons and exposure to charges of reckless endangerment. (x-spouse issues common) Everyone has a helmet on. (Not)

(3) Answered in #2 as best I can.

(4) I read this somewhere recently. Its something like estimated 400% more youth riding ATV then there was 5 years ago. But there is a 800% increase in serious injury or fatality. The table listed the following reasons as potential causes. I have their order of experience as close as I can remember -
a - The trend is youth ATV’s are being purchased more often by parents without ATV / off-road experience.
b - Youth are being allowed to operate the parents ATV’s as adult ATV’s have become less complicated to operate (aka automatic transmissions and hand brakes)
c - The general growth of ATV numbers provides for increased access to a ATV for unsupervised use by children.
d - Youth are “up-sizing” to larger, faster and heavier quads because of “learned skills”
e - Youth are being exposed to ATV operation at much earlier ages then ever before experienced.

I will attempt to locate the reference and source of this but I surf a lot and it might take some time.

 

I dont have much to add to this, Ive never owned an ATV and neither have my kids. I just ordered a Kazuma 90 for my soon-to-be 8 yr old, it should be here in a week or so. However, my wife and I discussed the purchase before we ordered it, and even took her to a couple local ATV dealers to sit on some and get a feel for proper size. Shes only ridden an ATV once, her cousins little Honda 90 last summer. She is quite the dare-devil and doesnt fear speed, which scares my wife and I considerably. I take her to the go-cart track and she FLYS around that course with kids twice her age, huge smile on her face the whole time. She damn near taught herself to ride a 2-wheeler bike, and her Green Machine is in a powerslide more often than it goes straight. She seems VERY capable of handling an ATV, but that DOES NOT MEAN we should throw her on an ultra-powerful race machine--- in fact, I believe its all the more reasons NOT to. If she had the power and speed, she'd use it--- and thats just not a good idea yet. So, the 90 it is until she gets more "seat time" and builds her knowledge and capabilities.

Yes, it is unfortunate that governing bodies have to step in and make decisions as to what is "best" for kids, that duty should be left to the parents. However, also unfortunate is the fact that millions of parents are incapable of making those decisions wisely, and as a result kids get hurt (or worse). As with many things in this country, minimum age limits are imposed in an attempt to force those ignot parents to do the right thing where they may not have otherwise. In those cases, the law works, and I dont take offense. Typically speaking, I think the goverment is sometimes TOO forgiving, not setting those age limits high enough. For example, I think 16 is the WRONG age to hand a high school teenager a drivers liscence. Right in the middle of their adolecsence when the only thing in life that matters is "being cool" and showing off for peer acceptance? The vast majority of teenagers dont need a car at 16 years old, they dont work or have pressing appointments to keep and dont have to shuffle kids all over town. "Life" hasnt really happened yet at that age, and the drivers liscence is almost pointless. Id be all for a national minimum age of 18 years old, when the kids typically step out from under mom's wing and head into the real world where a car will be necessary.

6 yrs old to ride an ATV is NOT an unreasonable age limit by any standard.

 

Im sure there a thousands of statics for adults who meet the guidelines set forth by the CPSC and have all the skills required to saftey ride and have managed to still get hurt on atvs, so me personally i dont believe siting examples of young children getting hurt validates the age limits set on riding atvs. Some people are pro and some are con on this subject but i just want to be able to decide what is best for my children. It part of what makes this country great FREEDOM!! If they get hurt then it will always be attributed to their age and if they dont those opposed will argue its just a matter until they do. I would guess that alot more children are hurt or killed in car accidents every than atv accidents, so why dont we set age limits for riding in a car. example no one under 6 allowed to ride in cars. Just my 2 cents.