I'd also Like to add that Cyclist "need" a Fraction of the cost for Trail maintenance and construction cost. Face it, A trail for the Woods for a Bike cost's 2 dollars, One for an ATV cost 30 dollars.. The way I see it, Bikers are getting the raw end of the financial deal by being charged the same amount for registration and user fees, yet more of their money is being used to maintain ATV frinedly trails, which As Isadi Eventually develope into nothing more than miles of 3 foot deep swamps unsuitable for Bikes.

 

Oh man. miles of three foot deep swamps. that sounds sweet. Count me in. If you cant handle the mud stay on the track! Quad money for quads. The two groups will never see eye to eye. So I say pay for your own play.

 

Im not certain how it works in NC,but in Michigan,ALL ORV funds are created by USERS,not TAXPAXERS.So your school example does'nt mean squat in Michigan,we are a PAY to PlAY State and we are SELF SUPPORTING thru our ORV sticker fund dollars.In Michigan,users pay a flat rate of 16.25 April 1st of EVERY yr to ride the 3100 miles of muti-use trails we have developed for Off Road Use.

This trail system is suppose to be a SHARED trail system.Cyclist can access ALL 3100 miles of these trails,while ATVers pay the SAME 16.25 user fee,we[ATVers] can access only about 50-60% of these 3100 miles of trails because of width issue's,YET,we make up for over 3 times the amount of ORV dollars that are put into this 16.25 user fund.

And now some cyclist want their OWN exclusive trails on MY $$ when my group puts in 3x more $$ into this trail fund?NO WAY!

 

They can portray themselves as such; for the simple reason that we have an antiquated "all volunteer" MANUAL maintenance system in which they are the #1 grant sponsor. The problem here being that we have state employees overseeing these programs whose very jobs hinge on the need for someone to oversee all these grant applications and disperse funds to all of these different groups.
Put modern machines on a regular maintenance schedule and use increased sticker fees to fix and maintain what we have...."suddenly".... you have at least one state employee out of a job and a club scrounging around for 180 grand in lost revenue.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

It's not that the system can't be fixed.....it's convincing folks who have been bellying up to the trough for all these years that the kitchen's closed and that privatization is a fact of life in public services.

 

This is the exact same "phenomena" that occured when everybody got all up in arms about the CPSC coming to West Virginia for the 2nd time, a few years back. All kinds of folks complaining about "the government" and "rights"....yet nobody willing to mention just <u>why</u> these people were there in the first place.

KIDS WERE GETTING KILLED AND MAIMED AT A RATE IN THAT REGION LIKE NO OTHER!

Yet when you tried to point out this fact and get down to the solutions we had at our disposal.....by God you were the devil himself! Try to talk about implimenting simple safety rules at huge riding areas like Windrock? Heck no!....we'll threaten your very life!

All done behind the cloak of "personal responsibility" and "anti-government" rhetoric. As much as the situation you describe is as trajic as can be....when are OTHER people like yourself going to stand up and say "enough" when crap on BOTH sides of the issue gets thrown at them? (the two sides being orv users who feel they should simply be "left alone" and non-riders who would like your machine outlawed in the first place).

 

Muddy, the school Example does fit, because you pay into it, and have not a whole lot of say about where it goes.
If the quads outnumber the bikes x 3 then again I say the Bikers are getting the raw end of the deal. Where there use to be Single track, that THEY PAYED FOR with their sticker fees, there is now an 8 foot wide swamp fest. Whos getting screwed here? I mean Im getting to the Point where, although I Like Quading on my own property, Its Just not fun to hit the public riding areas. Beer, swamps, and idiots is all I see around here. If you doubt my Scenario, take a look at the thousands of Web pages dedicated to the subject of ATVING and youl see 80 % Pictures of Just ripping up land, People toasting with beer. The Gentleman a few posts ago complained how they spent 80 grand fixing an area of trail system that Atvers destroyed, and a few days later the damage was reoccuring, and now they are looking at 260 grand for repairs and upgrades?? And You know what, You think Cyclist funds are NOT going to be used for that repair? Of course they are. Near Parkersburg WV, I used to ride a Beautiful Piece of property in a state Park, was an Experimental trail system for about 4 years. Started out as Mountain Bike trails, then Motorcyclists were allowed in, Paying 5 dollars a day to ride..Then about 2 years later they decided to widen the trails.. (there was an 8 month time frame where ATVS werent allowed because the trails werent wide enough). At any rate after approximately 8 months the ATVS were allowed in, the user rates went up tp 12 dollars to pay for the Trail Mainteance that was required now for the ATVS, and within a Year it was shut down to everyone because of trail destruction. Imagine that, So Cyclist Who were able to ride the property alone for a few years, and Paid their dues, didnt complain when the prices were raised to WELCOME ATVERS, and yet its the same ATVERS who got the whole place shut down and now the Cyclist have got squat. The Fact of the Matter is, that for quite a few decades Cyclist have enjoyed Off-roading with hardly Any confrontations to environmental groups. More property was opened, Private Landowners were more willing to allow ridding on their property, it was much less taboo. Now with the ATVS, Everything Is confrontational, Private parties dont want you On their Land and the whole Environmental community is lobbying to shut down Public Areas, so I say HELL YES your gonna Pay for My single Track trail, It's a Hell of alot more fair than what you got taken away from cyclist.

 

You've just touched on the one subject that nobody in the community (besides yourself) is willing to talk about. Taking ACTION against those who are ruining things for the rest of us. The national groups won't propose it and neither will the local clubs (most of them). Everybody seems more worried about being "liked" (and the resulting income which follows) than getting those off the trail who shouldn't be there.

I just quit caring a long time ago after observing that absolutely no legacy is being built here. Younger adults don't fight for this kind of stuff and have relied on every generation before them to set standards within their community that folks just plain don't desecrate for fear of being exiled from same.

The problem being that you have to have a sense of community in the first place.

 

I want to thank all you that have posted here on this subject, it has educated me a little about the quad/mc situation in this country. I have to admit that out here in Ca. I am not aware of ANY quad/mc problem's like some of you have talked about here and what I read on thumpertalk. The reason for that IMO is we have a bunch of different areas to ride. Some of the places that I go that are more suited to qaud use so there are more quads riding there. Very wide open areas in the desert and our one beach ohv park. I can also think of one nat forrest area too. The trails are more small roads to me. The places that I go to most are unsuitable for quads and you see very few of them, most are like my wifes quad, something for the wife to putt around camp a little. The trails I am talking about are very technical, narrow, steep, rocky, lots of close trees, off camber, etc...Some may say dangerous. A quad would not fit even if it wanted to. As for the funding, we ALL pay into the same fund with our $25.00 for 2 years registration. To the best of my knowledge the money is not then split into 2 funds based on quad/mc ratio. The nat. forrests are free for the visiting. State parks just went from $4.00 a day to $6.00 a day. You can also buy a year pass for I believe $60.00, used to be $40.00 that will get you into ANY state park for 1 year from date purchased. And that is to get your whole truck/rv/trailer into the park, doesnt matter how many mc/quads you have in the back same price. I will say that some day I may just have to take a extended vacation with my dirt bike, and come check out what you guys have to offer in Michigan and NC. I would love to see what your riding areas are like. Dont think I will go to Mo. though doesnt sound like I would be accepted to well there. Of course that is based on the comments of one. Mom always told me not to judge a book by it's cover, I have been struggling with that for 44 yrs.

 

Gotta Big House with lots of room and room for one of your toys if you dont mind a Great dane Who thinks hes a lap dog., Your welcome anytime, would be glad to hit some trails with you.
Most areas dont have the conflict you see here.. Its just a few areas in comparison to the many miles of trails out there, and you hardly ever see it on Private property where riding is allowed. It's nice to see the different Experiences typed here from other areas of the country.

 

Sound's great. I have a 80lb Chow/Lab mix who truly believes he is a toy poodle, so I think I will be fine.