ATV'er killed
#31
03-03-2005, 09:50 PM
ATV'er killed
whats the big deal sure a helmet could save your life or a seat belt could save your life but it should be up to the rider if he wants a helmet or not. every time you get on a quad could be the last if you get stupid.sure i'm all for a helmet if you want to wear one but if you don't then leave us alone.and yes i do prefer to ride with my shoes on because those footpegs are hell on jumps
#32
03-03-2005, 09:52 PM
ATV'er killed
[quote]
Originally posted by: blackballed
i look at it this way keep your butt up there and i'll keep mine in kentucky
Originally posted by: blackballed
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
<EM>"I think I know where you are going with this... not sure if increased fines, and new laws requiring safety gear is the right answer, but we can sure build a case that it would make a difference. The problem is that even though you put stickers on the machines telling you to wear them, they are ignored..."</EM>.
If they are ignoring the stickers....then it's pretty darn hard to ignore the money flying out of their pocketbooks.
<EM>"....The other issue is that laws of this nature are handled at the state level, so getting all 50 states to act as one is pretty hard, considering the motorcycle industry fights that have resulted in mixed results....."
</EM>I think we are overestimating the problem here. Michigan has laws on the books (which I'm sure mirror <EM>many</EM> other states) which simply demand that you act like you've got the good sense God gave you when operating an atv. The problem is, <u>everybody</u> in this community is <EM>afraid</EM> to go into these places like WV., KY., TN., etc. and start pointing out that it is <EM>their</EM> complacency on these issues that will get OUR rights taken away from us. Why these consumer advocacy groups haven't swept in on these places and tried to paint these doubled up, helmetless riders as examples of the manner in which the <EM>rest</EM> of this country acts and <STRONG>is</STRONG> truly like...is beyond me! (and god <u>help us</u> if they ever figure this out[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]).
<EM>"...still think that increased focus on mandatory training and information availability are viable options....."</EM>
Agreed, I just don't think the word "mandatory" means a darn thing if their isn't a "fine" big enough behind it that truly defines the word.
<EM>"....Not sure I'd use that bicycle analogy though. Compaired to the numbers of bike accidents and deaths per year etc... ATV statistics are only scratching the surface in comparison....."
</EM>
Sorry for the confusion, I was just using the bike analogy to illustrate the fact that if you aren't intelligent enough to figure certain things out for yourself or have me/somebody else "explain" them to you....then maybe "a bicycle" should be the only conveyance you should be allowed to swing your leg over (at least 9 times out of 10 they don't blame 'the bike' for your mishap and you are most always <u>correctly</u> labeled <STRONG>as you should be</STRONG>[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img].
<EM>"I think I know where you are going with this... not sure if increased fines, and new laws requiring safety gear is the right answer, but we can sure build a case that it would make a difference. The problem is that even though you put stickers on the machines telling you to wear them, they are ignored..."</EM>.
If they are ignoring the stickers....then it's pretty darn hard to ignore the money flying out of their pocketbooks.
<EM>"....The other issue is that laws of this nature are handled at the state level, so getting all 50 states to act as one is pretty hard, considering the motorcycle industry fights that have resulted in mixed results....."
</EM>I think we are overestimating the problem here. Michigan has laws on the books (which I'm sure mirror <EM>many</EM> other states) which simply demand that you act like you've got the good sense God gave you when operating an atv. The problem is, <u>everybody</u> in this community is <EM>afraid</EM> to go into these places like WV., KY., TN., etc. and start pointing out that it is <EM>their</EM> complacency on these issues that will get OUR rights taken away from us. Why these consumer advocacy groups haven't swept in on these places and tried to paint these doubled up, helmetless riders as examples of the manner in which the <EM>rest</EM> of this country acts and <STRONG>is</STRONG> truly like...is beyond me! (and god <u>help us</u> if they ever figure this out[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]).
<EM>"...still think that increased focus on mandatory training and information availability are viable options....."</EM>
Agreed, I just don't think the word "mandatory" means a darn thing if their isn't a "fine" big enough behind it that truly defines the word.
<EM>"....Not sure I'd use that bicycle analogy though. Compaired to the numbers of bike accidents and deaths per year etc... ATV statistics are only scratching the surface in comparison....."
</EM>
Sorry for the confusion, I was just using the bike analogy to illustrate the fact that if you aren't intelligent enough to figure certain things out for yourself or have me/somebody else "explain" them to you....then maybe "a bicycle" should be the only conveyance you should be allowed to swing your leg over (at least 9 times out of 10 they don't blame 'the bike' for your mishap and you are most always <u>correctly</u> labeled <STRONG>as you should be</STRONG>[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img].
#33
03-04-2005, 08:50 AM
ATV'er killed
When I go to a Windrock atv event...and I witness two children blast pass the event coordinators and everyone else assembled at the trailhead... doubled up on a mini-atv with no helmets on, <u>BY THEMSELVES</u> AND HEADED UP THE MOUNTAINSIDE..."I" (and I'll say it again) have two thoughts as to the character of all those assembled who just watched those two precious children drive by.
One....they are either to stupid to come out of the rain....or...
"Two"....THEY JUST DON'T CARE ....or....
"Three"...a sad combination of the two. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
And I will say the exact same thing in regards to these atv clubs who have suddenly "found Jesus" concerning "youth" atv training.....yet instantly pull these kids aside right after the training session... whispering in their ear about how they can throw that darn 'ol nasty helmet thing away.... when they turn "18" and "grow up".(then you can "be <u>a man</u> like Daddy is".....).
Now if you don't like my 'take' on any of this, fine...yet I will still fight to not have <u>your</u> picture on an atv (or that youth inspiring signature below your posts for that matter) be the "poster child" for every darn anti-atv group in this country who wants to hold up your way of life as "the norm" in this atving community.
"My" problem being....that I don't have enough fellow riders out there with enough kahunas to strap a set on and do the same....<u>and you know it</u>. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
As I've said before, I've ridden with a guy who rides helmetless for years and we've never had a problem over the issue. Yet he realizes that he has every right to try and change the law here in Michigan; just as I have every right to bring attention to an issue that has put a huge roadblock (which does NOT need to be there) in the progress of our community (funny how these old-time cyclists and snowmobilers got past this issue DECADES ago!).
We just plain don't talk about it in person and I extend the <u>same</u> courtesy to anybody I visit outstate.
One....they are either to stupid to come out of the rain....or...
"Two"....THEY JUST DON'T CARE ....or....
"Three"...a sad combination of the two. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
And I will say the exact same thing in regards to these atv clubs who have suddenly "found Jesus" concerning "youth" atv training.....yet instantly pull these kids aside right after the training session... whispering in their ear about how they can throw that darn 'ol nasty helmet thing away.... when they turn "18" and "grow up".(then you can "be <u>a man</u> like Daddy is".....).
Now if you don't like my 'take' on any of this, fine...yet I will still fight to not have <u>your</u> picture on an atv (or that youth inspiring signature below your posts for that matter) be the "poster child" for every darn anti-atv group in this country who wants to hold up your way of life as "the norm" in this atving community.
"My" problem being....that I don't have enough fellow riders out there with enough kahunas to strap a set on and do the same....<u>and you know it</u>. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
As I've said before, I've ridden with a guy who rides helmetless for years and we've never had a problem over the issue. Yet he realizes that he has every right to try and change the law here in Michigan; just as I have every right to bring attention to an issue that has put a huge roadblock (which does NOT need to be there) in the progress of our community (funny how these old-time cyclists and snowmobilers got past this issue DECADES ago!).
We just plain don't talk about it in person and I extend the <u>same</u> courtesy to anybody I visit outstate.
#34
03-04-2005, 09:37 AM
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ATV'er killed
Jaggers, it is that kind of attitude that will force the government to do away with ATV's altogether. They did it with 3 wheelers, what makes you think they won't do it again? I certainly hope you never have to bury a child or a relative of yours because of your example and feelings on the matter.
The pont is, kids are very impressionable... and you might be signing their death sentence. Personally, I am not sure I could live with that...
This has nothing to do with freedom of choice, or personal preference. Nobody is criticising your decision... but for kids under 18... helmets should be worn... I'll fight till I drop to maintain your right to ride and choose... but I can't get behind no helmets for kids.
The pont is, kids are very impressionable... and you might be signing their death sentence. Personally, I am not sure I could live with that...
This has nothing to do with freedom of choice, or personal preference. Nobody is criticising your decision... but for kids under 18... helmets should be worn... I'll fight till I drop to maintain your right to ride and choose... but I can't get behind no helmets for kids.
#35
03-04-2005, 11:53 AM
ATV'er killed
I guess I'll always have a problem with any man's "right to choose" while he is recreating outside the workplace.....for the simple reason that 99.9% of most riders will "choose" not to carry the kind of extremely expensive catastrophic insurance that keeps their "unavoidable injury" off of MY insurance premium.
In other words, most people would just as soon let ME pay for not taking the exact same precuations a guy would have to take at work....as well as any financial bankruptcy HE causes to HIS family as a result of HIS negligence ***<u>RECREATING</u>*** (one of the reasons our insurance bills are through the roof).
We're not talking about slipping on the front step on the way out to get the paper here....we're talking about teaching kids one thing....then turning around and telling them that when they turn 18?....by god, the United States of America will cover any injury you have WITHOUT that brain bucket and you darn well have the right to sue anybody you can get your hands on to make darn sure of it!!! (and it won't cost you an extra DIME the minute YOU DECIDE to <u>quit</u> wearing it!).
These are the things these people don't like (and flat out refuse) to talk about. And why?
Because these truths put them in the same exact category as every other free-loading s.o.b. in this country who has demanded that their actions and their lifestyle be the direct financial responsibility of everybody <u>but</u> themselves!!! (and darn if they'll do even one simple thing to reduce those risks for the sake of the rest of us paying for their family's "unexpected" bankruptcy).
Why do anything you don't 'want to'....if you know this country will prop you up against the wall with a feeding tube/drool running down the side of your mouth...while the rest of that family you swore to protect and provide for is "covered" <U>by me</U>? I'd mention the virtue of doing everything you possibly can in order to make <u>certain</u> that you are at the very least 'there for' the family you created....yet that concept went south with the "I'm not happy" ("it's for the good of the <u>kids"</u>) generation who put the broken family rate in this country @ 50% or better. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
In other words, most people would just as soon let ME pay for not taking the exact same precuations a guy would have to take at work....as well as any financial bankruptcy HE causes to HIS family as a result of HIS negligence ***<u>RECREATING</u>*** (one of the reasons our insurance bills are through the roof).
We're not talking about slipping on the front step on the way out to get the paper here....we're talking about teaching kids one thing....then turning around and telling them that when they turn 18?....by god, the United States of America will cover any injury you have WITHOUT that brain bucket and you darn well have the right to sue anybody you can get your hands on to make darn sure of it!!! (and it won't cost you an extra DIME the minute YOU DECIDE to <u>quit</u> wearing it!).
These are the things these people don't like (and flat out refuse) to talk about. And why?
Because these truths put them in the same exact category as every other free-loading s.o.b. in this country who has demanded that their actions and their lifestyle be the direct financial responsibility of everybody <u>but</u> themselves!!! (and darn if they'll do even one simple thing to reduce those risks for the sake of the rest of us paying for their family's "unexpected" bankruptcy).
Why do anything you don't 'want to'....if you know this country will prop you up against the wall with a feeding tube/drool running down the side of your mouth...while the rest of that family you swore to protect and provide for is "covered" <U>by me</U>? I'd mention the virtue of doing everything you possibly can in order to make <u>certain</u> that you are at the very least 'there for' the family you created....yet that concept went south with the "I'm not happy" ("it's for the good of the <u>kids"</u>) generation who put the broken family rate in this country @ 50% or better. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
#36
03-04-2005, 12:42 PM
ATV'er killed
Again, just ask the average helmetless rider how much he expects to pay "extra" for ignoring all the studies on helmet use and injuries in ANY sport....and the answer he/she gives you is a direct reflection as to just who you are dealing with when it comes to this issue (sorry people, but I've lived right down the road from Detroit all my life...and there is no greater example of this type behavior than what I read in the paper <U>each and</U> <u>every day</u>). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
#37
03-04-2005, 12:51 PM
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ATV'er killed
I hear ya man.. just trying to be nice... Say how do you like that Rhino? I see you on the other list once in a while..... thinking about getting one myself, but I really like the utility of the RTV900 too. (That's a Kubota to those wondering)
I will say this however... if a kid is playing tackle football, he can't get on the field without a helmet, and the proper pads. In play, two players may meet in a collision at what, maybe a total of around 6 to 8 miles an hour.. and one kid of maybe 150 pounds may fall on top of the other no problems, they get up and go at it again....
NOW Consider an ATV enthusiast travelling at only 25 to 30 miles an hour hitting a tree. No pads, no helmet... and tell me that is a wise decision.... The blood spatter pattern may be interesting to some, but I can't admit wanting to look at it or wanting to think about the carnage. I guess for the real freedom thinkers out there, the question is do you wonder if they actually feel pain at that moment?
Sorry for being blunt... some people just can't understand anything but blunt....
I will say this however... if a kid is playing tackle football, he can't get on the field without a helmet, and the proper pads. In play, two players may meet in a collision at what, maybe a total of around 6 to 8 miles an hour.. and one kid of maybe 150 pounds may fall on top of the other no problems, they get up and go at it again....
NOW Consider an ATV enthusiast travelling at only 25 to 30 miles an hour hitting a tree. No pads, no helmet... and tell me that is a wise decision.... The blood spatter pattern may be interesting to some, but I can't admit wanting to look at it or wanting to think about the carnage. I guess for the real freedom thinkers out there, the question is do you wonder if they actually feel pain at that moment?
Sorry for being blunt... some people just can't understand anything but blunt....
#38
03-04-2005, 01:59 PM
ATV'er killed
...."blunt" seems to be the only method (I've found) which causes those without a leg to stand on to finally shut up. Not that you don't always appreciate the debate and their opinion in it....yet when does their argument finally get recognized as being detrimental to the sport itself and how much MORE time do you waste on it?
I wish they'd finally come out with something comparable to the Rhino in pure comfort and fun because we have never had a better time on 4 wheels. The older atv will always be relegated to back-up duty at best and I can never see myself riding one for fun again unless forced to. We see more on the trail, we're more relaxed, the power and fun factor is there when you need it....I could go on and on.
I like the Kubota, I like the Ranger XP....yet just sit in the Rhino once and see if you can tell any difference (I could care less about power or speed...comfort, suspension and handling are everything in my book).
I wish they'd finally come out with something comparable to the Rhino in pure comfort and fun because we have never had a better time on 4 wheels. The older atv will always be relegated to back-up duty at best and I can never see myself riding one for fun again unless forced to. We see more on the trail, we're more relaxed, the power and fun factor is there when you need it....I could go on and on.
I like the Kubota, I like the Ranger XP....yet just sit in the Rhino once and see if you can tell any difference (I could care less about power or speed...comfort, suspension and handling are everything in my book).
#39
03-04-2005, 06:13 PM
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ATV'er killed
I kind of laugh to myself when I see the helmet issue come up. It's a "no brainer" for me in CA. Brain buckets are required (VC 38505). Do I see it, yup. Usually out at Pismo. Some people have this weird belief that normal laws don't apply on sand. CA is the same as 100% of the VC applies to OHVs as well. DUI, Open Container, Speeding (though the VC has some specific speed limits in the OHV section).
Why people don't wear helmets? No clue. They have this belief about Freedom or something. But when they end up critically injured, we ALL pay in one way or another. "But I have insurance!" Yeah, and so do the rest of us. We are all spreading costs amongst us. Heard someone say this about insurance, and they are right, "Insurance is like playing the lottery. Except when you win, it is because you lost."
I don't hear of that many accidents in CA that are fatal, but they happen. Usually hear about them at Pismo. Either drunk, razor back or they go driving east and fall off a dune face. Maybe I'll just have to research it some.
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Why people don't wear helmets? No clue. They have this belief about Freedom or something. But when they end up critically injured, we ALL pay in one way or another. "But I have insurance!" Yeah, and so do the rest of us. We are all spreading costs amongst us. Heard someone say this about insurance, and they are right, "Insurance is like playing the lottery. Except when you win, it is because you lost."
I don't hear of that many accidents in CA that are fatal, but they happen. Usually hear about them at Pismo. Either drunk, razor back or they go driving east and fall off a dune face. Maybe I'll just have to research it some.
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#40
03-04-2005, 07:47 PM
ATV'er killed
oh yeah lets throw in the beer now we are just a hill climbing machine...oh yeah can't wait to crash my quad so i can let the rest of the world take care of me..and i don't recal ever saying that kids shold not half to wear helmets hell i never said they are a bad idea i said it should be a choice if i want to wear one.
you don't even half to wear a helmet here on a motor cycle.
you don't even half to wear a helmet here on a motor cycle.