Very true........ Now could I talk you all into going to the "Wild Sky" thread and voting no (as many times as you like) since someone told the greenies they were loosing 75%- 25%, and after 3 days they came back with a vengeance. One snowest poster was saying this morning by refreshing the poll votes were coming in at 15 a minute.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I hear the frustration with the local issues... but on the flip side, you should count yourself lucky there is even a dialog going on...."

There is no dialogue...which is the entire point. We've got guys up here saying that they represent every orv user group in the state and that they are drafting legislation as we speak (that they refuse to talk about)....yet the state authorities responsible for dealing with these same people/issues.....haven't even heard of their existence!

"...I'll admit the system is broken... but if we do nothing to lend our voice to the debate... we are defeated before we get started...."

I've been lending my voice to the debate for going on 6 years now....and can't even get past the public's right to be a part of same or on to the actual issues at hand!.

"...We can complain about all the defeats we have suffered in the past.. or continue to push forward for change...."

I'm not squawking about "the past" here, DB....I'm just plain sick and tired of filing FOIA requests over assinine public disclosure issues IN THE PRESENT !!!

"...MN is making some progress. So is Kentucky....."

Sure, Kentucky is making progress....yet as the people involved down there will tell you..JUST DON'T BRING UP THE SUBJECT OF RIDING THERE SAFELY OR ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY APPROACHING "PAY-TO-PLAY" LIKE THE H/M SYSTEM...<u>BECAUSE THERE'S NO ONE DOWN THERE WITH THE GUTS TO LOOK THE MAJORITY OF THESE DOUBLED UP HELMETLESS NATIVES IN THE EYE AND CALL THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE OR WHAT EFFECT THEY'VE HAD ON THE KIDS DOWN THERE AND THE SPORT ITSELF AS A WHOLE</u>.
Again, DB....it's a matter of claiming "yahoo, we're building huge places like Windrock"....yet history showed us real quick that there wasn't a stand-up person alive who had the kahunas to say a damn thing about what goes on there today.

".....As for your buddie getting paid for trail maintenence... More power to him if he can find a living doing work like that... At least some good is coming out of it in the result of groomed trails. Sounds pretty cheap if he has to provide the equipment too..."

He's making a living out of doing absolutely NOTHING, DB...the trails AREN'T "groomed" (on the contrary, they're kept almost 4-wheel unrideable "to keep down speeds")...while THE STATE pays for every piece of antiquated non-motorized equipment they ever owned!
Not to hard to be the only full-time orv lobbyist in the history of this state...... when you've got 180 large coming in every year to run equipment (with volunteers) that somebody else has already payed for! (and you've got another $4 million on the way that nobody is supposed to be talking about!.....).

We've got the largest trail system in the country here in Michigan.
So should we just take all of this running around behind the scenes <u>crap</u> in this focus state and forever be "the exception to the rule"...while all this time simply forfeiting the public's right to comment on <u>any</u> of it? If we're "the big boy on the block" in this community....why do groups like the AMA, ATVA, NOHVCC and others who pat themselves on the back continually as to how they want to get "involved" in this community's business....want NO PART of what is going on here in Michigan, Kentucky or Tennessee? (kind of hard to say 'much' when your fellow board or long-time member won't answer questions from the peon public either).
At the last CPC hearings; we had atv groups up there standing right beside legitimate leaders in our community with only <u>one goal in mind</u>....keep the 'rotten' government out of their right to weld a car seat to the back of their quad, strap their infant kids all over it and head on up the mountainside like it was the family cruiser.
Yet did any orv leader in WV that day have the stones to disassociate themselves from this behavior? Heck No!
Why...if the CPSC isn't smart enough to distinguish good representation from bad...why give them any clue as to the community-shattering issues that question these orv leader's very own legitimacy? How embarrasing is it to run a "non-profit" that hangs their hat on issues like safety and being "the voice of the public".....while places like Windrock flourish and the orv community is out there filing FOIA requests to see where their money is going or why the last public meeting was cancelled without reason here in Michigan?
Sorry, but I've witnessed the good, bad and ugly of people within our <u>own</u> community....and there needs to be one hell of a housecleaning here....and damn well before we bring the neighbors on over for a chat (where they would, frankly, question what the hell WE have been doing; not to mention who in the hell we really are..and ask these questions with <u>good reason</u>).

 

DB you are the man and i love hearing people get so fired up over this subject but what we really need is well hang with me for a second. we have how many hundreds of atv clubs out there? we need one club to stand up and combine all of them or something. look at what the NRA has done for all of us that own firearms. (i am not an NRA member because they are so political and i do not agree with their political view) without the political viewness we need to combine ONE atv club and get 100,000 people to stand strong instead of having 100 atv clubs with 1000 people involved. just a thought once again trying to think outside the box.

 

The only people out there drawing a non-profit salary in the light 4-wheeled world are the red-headed stepchildren of a 'little' group called the AMA.

They hide their heads in the sand when blatant safety debacles like Windrock are shoved in their face; they ignore the type of tough freedom of speech issues (see Michigan today) that involve long-time AMA members/leaders....and they are the #1 reason not even so much as the word "helmet" was mentioned in their formal petition to the CPSC on safety a few years back (another issue that they've talked out of both sides of their mouth for <u>years</u> in the street community).

Yeah, I'll join a national "club"...just as soon as I can find some leader who doesn't keep a $100 bill in his wallet for "anyone who catches me riding without a helmet"...instead of standing up to these issues and many others as a leader should.

Leadership (to me) is embodied by someone you can simply look straight in the eye and who has absolutely nothing to hide (especially in regards to something as ridiculously assinine as simple trail issues).I have yet to find one person in my state who passes that test and who isn't after something for his group <U>at the expense</U> of all others.

 

ok black lets start a group you and DB can be presidents. and if you need someone to tell anyone where they can shove it i can do the dirty work. that is all that is missing and DB has been saying it for the longest time we need to assemble and stand up but we also need a good organization to be formed so people do have somewhere to go to have a voice. i haven't joined an atv club cause i haven't found a decent one i trust to do the right thing. people keep telling me about the one in minnesota but it is government run so of corse i don't trust that. it is probably like those license plates that you can buy and spend an extra 30 dollars a year on to help out the wildlife, well what they don't tell you is that money from this goes to buying up alot of land (and alot of it is about 20 min from here) and they close it off so you can't drive atv's on it can't even break a twig. so who am i to trust on this issue? i wanna do my part to help out the sport i love so much but with so much corruption i would feel better if there was a grassroots type of atv club to join that is basically made up of a bunch of pi$$ed off rednecks. and i would like to see a websight to of how many members and what has been accomplished how much money was brought in and where it all went. is this to much to ask????

 

Since NOBODY has a club ANYWHERE that meets the expectations of Mr Blackballed,I say that its high time that he form his own club with members that share his exact feelings and start lobbing Lansing yourselves.You've been bitching on your own for 5 years now and its gotten you NOWHERE..I mean,except for high blood pressure,what has all your moaning got you accomplished?

 

MUDDY there isn't an extremely good atv club out there. you got a bunch of clubs that are good in their own certain ways, but we need one to really stand up and go beyond and be a good one for us to follow that will save our sport. all i am asking for is the NRA of atving.

 

Right now,there is the ATVA [national club]and it has done some good for ATVers on a national basis.Somewhere about 2003,the CPSC held a meeting in West Virginia to ban the use of ATVs for ALL youth under the age of 16yrs old,and Doug Morris and the ATVA was right there to speak on and defend our cause.Thus resulting in no immediate national ban on ATVs for youth.The ATVA was also right here in Michigan just a few months ago to help us argue the DNR with regards to their improper and perhaps even illegal use of ORV safety instructors/classes.

 

Let's not forget the work that NOVCC and Blue ribbon Coalition have been doing too. It is unfortunate that some feel that results should be immediate. Sometimes they are.. most of the time they are not. It takes time for things to shake out... that is the difference between professional lobbiests that the environmentalists use, and grass roots efforts.

I understand what it takes for volunteers to take control. In my case, due to physical disabilities, I can't get out there and work on rebuilding bridges, or dig drainage ditches, groom trails etc as much as I;d like to... but there are things that everyone can do... Be a cheerleader, keep up the pressure so that the deciding powers understand that the issue is important to you, the voting public. Write your congressmen and state leaders, and write them often. Let them know that you ARE WATCHING them and paying close attention to their voting actions.

The more people you can get to join voices to the cause the better.

I fully understand BBalled's frustration with the state of current events. I may not agree with his point of view all the time, I think we are on the same page, but more importantly, I am glad he is on my side of the fence.. We are both looking at the same goal. We just take different paths to get there.

If you look at your history books about warfare, every army has it's bezerkers.... It's leaders, it's followers, It's generals, and it's lieutenants.. And the politicians trying to manuver to what they perceive to be the eventual winning side. Where you fit in.. well you choose to defne that. All are needed, and all are welcome to join the fight...

As for the CPSC actions in the past.. well think about it... they probably receive 100 letters complaining about ATV rider safety every day. They are bombarded with negative news media coverage around the clock.. and because there are parents out there that still will put 2 year old kids on ATV's and turn them loose in the back yard.. we are going to have to deal with these types of actions.

Now I am not talking about parents who take time to properly fit the child to a machine, who purchase all the necessary safety gear, who spend hours ensuring they have the proper instruction etc.. I am talking about the Bubba's who get a great deal on a 90 cc machine from some garage sale thinking the kid will grow into it.. who Maybe will buy them a helmet 6 sizes too big so they don't have to buy another one until the child graduates from college.. puts them on the machine with shorts and sandals, shows them how to start it, and goes back in the house and grabs a beer and plops on the couch. These are the people that the laws are trying to control.

The problem is, you will never control idiots like that.... and the rest of us who are responsible in our actions and methods have to suffer for it.

 

I dont downplay BB efforts to talk about the issues that need to be discussed in the ORV community,he has brought up some very GOOD issues that should be addressed...My problem with BB is that when you cant get the results your looking for by following the chain of command within the DNR,Off Road Advisory board or exsisting ATV clubs,than its time for you to CHANGE your battle statagy and start banging on the doors of your Congressman/lawmakers or start your OWN club..

Instead,he just continues to cry on the SAME shoulders that he feels have left him in the dark for the last 5 yrs.And quite frankly,these folks are simply tired of hearing from him and now,I think most just ignore him..