Challenge to the Environmental lobby
Aug 11, 2005 | 08:45 AM
#21
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
IGNORE?
yep,thats exactly what happened to BB last night at our ORV Advisory board meeting..Seems from what I've seen last night,that these folks dont care to hear what he has to say..They certainly screwed him out of his 5 minute of talk time IMO..He legally applied to speak for 5 minutes,and the DNR conveiniently FORGOT to turn in HIS internet application to talk..A heated discussion over this ensued,and they give him only 3 minutes.If ever there were a time that I thought nobody wanted to hear from this guy,THIS WAS IT!
John,its time you go and get your own club together like I said earlier,than YOU guys head to Lansing and talk the ORV issues over with your lawmakers,cause from what I saw last night,these guys are sick and tired of hearing from you.
yep,thats exactly what happened to BB last night at our ORV Advisory board meeting..Seems from what I've seen last night,that these folks dont care to hear what he has to say..They certainly screwed him out of his 5 minute of talk time IMO..He legally applied to speak for 5 minutes,and the DNR conveiniently FORGOT to turn in HIS internet application to talk..A heated discussion over this ensued,and they give him only 3 minutes.If ever there were a time that I thought nobody wanted to hear from this guy,THIS WAS IT!
John,its time you go and get your own club together like I said earlier,than YOU guys head to Lansing and talk the ORV issues over with your lawmakers,cause from what I saw last night,these guys are sick and tired of hearing from you.
Aug 14, 2005 | 01:11 PM
#22
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
Originally posted by: weez440
.....do my part to help out the sport i love so much but with so much corruption i would feel better if there was a grassroots type of atv club to join that is basically made up of a bunch of pi$$ed off rednecks....
...and i would like to see a websight to of how many members and what has been accomplished how much money was brought in and where it all went. is this to much to ask????...
.....do my part to help out the sport i love so much but with so much corruption i would feel better if there was a grassroots type of atv club to join that is basically made up of a bunch of pi$$ed off rednecks....
...and i would like to see a websight to of how many members and what has been accomplished how much money was brought in and where it all went. is this to much to ask????...
If you ask somebody like myself, yourself or DB to spend our time (nationally) on such a project...why would you even start such an undertaking.... when you can't even get but a handful of this sport's participants to fight forv these kind of critical consensus topics (or even more SIMPLER issues such as sound?).
In regards to your second statement regarding financial disclosure; I'm not sure that many of these non-profit's financial records aren't published every year....yet, you're right...it is much <u>easier</u> to observe an ongoing and updated financial snapshot of any club's recent history; if anything, just to visualize in an instant just what they value and how they are proritizing their often very limited finances (kind of like my mom always used to say..."follow the money" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]. I'm sorry, but I have a big problem with people who are always worried about what the next t-shirt is going to look like or how much the club should spend on non-impact or non-charity based events.
I'm with you here....yet my problem is not starting the movement....it's counting on one or two hands the numbert of folks who you can simply look straight in the eye....not unlike how many "redneck" communities have been making it happen for years.
Aug 14, 2005 | 01:50 PM
#23
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Since NOBODY has a club ANYWHERE that meets the expectations of Mr Blackballed,I say that its high time that he form his own club with members that share his exact feelings and start lobbing Lansing yourselves.You've been bitching on your own for 5 years now and its gotten you NOWHERE..I mean,except for high blood pressure,what has all your moaning got you accomplished?
Since NOBODY has a club ANYWHERE that meets the expectations of Mr Blackballed,I say that its high time that he form his own club with members that share his exact feelings and start lobbing Lansing yourselves.You've been bitching on your own for 5 years now and its gotten you NOWHERE..I mean,except for high blood pressure,what has all your moaning got you accomplished?
Aug 14, 2005 | 02:03 PM
#24
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
Right now,there is the ATVA [national club]and it has done some good for ATVers on a national basis.Somewhere about 2003,the CPSC held a meeting in West Virginia to ban the use of ATVs for ALL youth under the age of 16yrs old,and Doug Morris and the ATVA was right there to speak on and defend our cause.Thus resulting in no immediate national ban on ATVs for youth.The ATVA was also right here in Michigan just a few months ago to help us argue the DNR with regards to their improper and perhaps even illegal use of ORV safety instructors/classes.
Right now,there is the ATVA [national club]and it has done some good for ATVers on a national basis.Somewhere about 2003,the CPSC held a meeting in West Virginia to ban the use of ATVs for ALL youth under the age of 16yrs old,and Doug Morris and the ATVA was right there to speak on and defend our cause.Thus resulting in no immediate national ban on ATVs for youth.The ATVA was also right here in Michigan just a few months ago to help us argue the DNR with regards to their improper and perhaps even illegal use of ORV safety instructors/classes.
If Mr. Morris was so interested in the safety aspect of these classes which were rigned in because people were getting gouged $25 to sit in on their kid's classes (an issue I warned these instructors would bite them in the **** years ago)...why would he sit there an not allow the preeminent safety institution in the land (the ASI has told me that they were never invited) to be included in these discussions? (for Pete's sakes, Bill; your leader of this group flat out admitted that much of the program being brought forward from these sessions was copied/lifted from the work these guys did !!!).
Aug 14, 2005 | 02:23 PM
#25
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I may not agree with his point of view all the time, I think we are on the same page....."
I have always respected your view also DB; as it is served up with an injection of intelligence that is required to meaningfully present it.
"....If you look at your history books about warfare, every army has it's bezerkers..."
Uhhh, I think I'll take all that back...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
"...As for the CPSC actions in the past.. well think about it... they probably receive 100 letters complaining about ATV rider safety every day. They are bombarded with negative news media coverage around the clock.. and because there are parents out there that still will put 2 year old kids on ATV's and turn them loose in the back yard.. we are going to have to deal with these types of actions....."
I agree completely.
If you're the ATVA(AMA) and you've got problems within your own community and you can't kepp your own house in order.....don't bitch about these guys asking who the people are next to you on that podium who think the government should mind their own business on safety in the sport or who ride in places like Windrock where every one of these club members are afraid to bring the subject of blatant safety abuses at their very own meeting controlling 10's of thousands of acres !!!.
"...The problem is, you will never control idiots like that.... and the rest of us who are responsible in our actions and methods have to suffer for it...."
I disagree with the first part and obviously agree with the second.
I have given up a long time ago "controlling" idiots....yet it is the people "suffering" who take responsibility for not demanding that the PUNISHMENT for these actions cause many fewer folks to do it in the first place. I've said for years, that one of the surest way to kill a growing club membership campaign is to appear cozy with law enforcement and be in favor of great tools like stiff fines and/or impoundments...tell me, who wants to ride with a bunch of people who can't even model or "legacize" (sic) proper partnered behavior in front of their very own kids or anybody else's?
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..I may not agree with his point of view all the time, I think we are on the same page....."
I have always respected your view also DB; as it is served up with an injection of intelligence that is required to meaningfully present it.
"....If you look at your history books about warfare, every army has it's bezerkers..."
Uhhh, I think I'll take all that back...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
"...As for the CPSC actions in the past.. well think about it... they probably receive 100 letters complaining about ATV rider safety every day. They are bombarded with negative news media coverage around the clock.. and because there are parents out there that still will put 2 year old kids on ATV's and turn them loose in the back yard.. we are going to have to deal with these types of actions....."
I agree completely.
If you're the ATVA(AMA) and you've got problems within your own community and you can't kepp your own house in order.....don't bitch about these guys asking who the people are next to you on that podium who think the government should mind their own business on safety in the sport or who ride in places like Windrock where every one of these club members are afraid to bring the subject of blatant safety abuses at their very own meeting controlling 10's of thousands of acres !!!.
"...The problem is, you will never control idiots like that.... and the rest of us who are responsible in our actions and methods have to suffer for it...."
I disagree with the first part and obviously agree with the second.
I have given up a long time ago "controlling" idiots....yet it is the people "suffering" who take responsibility for not demanding that the PUNISHMENT for these actions cause many fewer folks to do it in the first place. I've said for years, that one of the surest way to kill a growing club membership campaign is to appear cozy with law enforcement and be in favor of great tools like stiff fines and/or impoundments...tell me, who wants to ride with a bunch of people who can't even model or "legacize" (sic) proper partnered behavior in front of their very own kids or anybody else's?
Aug 14, 2005 | 07:45 PM
#26
Weekend Warrior
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 2,572
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
The ATVA did not go to West Virginia in 2003 to discuss Windrock or any watered down petetions..They were there to fight for our kids right to ride a 4 wheeler under the age of 16,and I think they got that acchomplished.
How in the hell do you expect Doug Morris to ask the ATV Safety Institute to be present for a meeting of this nature anyways?All they [ASI] would do is make things WORSE for a hearing of this kind..Remember the Consent Decree Agreement John?Let me remind you that it was the CPSC and the MANUFACTURES that agreed upon the goofy and redicules AGE/CC sizes that we have had since 1988.What possible recommendation do you suppose the ASI would request to the CPSC at this WV meeting that could POSSIBLE make things better for the youth of America and shove aside a possible operator ban on all youth under the age of 16yrs old?NOTHING!
At least right now,in most States,our kids can ride an appropiately sized ATV unders adult visual supervision and certified..Get the ASI and the CPSC involved,and EVERY kid in EVERY STATE may be FORCED to abide by the manufactures age/cc recommendations that were put in place in the 1988 Consent Decree Agreement.And I dont know ANYBODY who wants that.
How in the hell do you expect Doug Morris to ask the ATV Safety Institute to be present for a meeting of this nature anyways?All they [ASI] would do is make things WORSE for a hearing of this kind..Remember the Consent Decree Agreement John?Let me remind you that it was the CPSC and the MANUFACTURES that agreed upon the goofy and redicules AGE/CC sizes that we have had since 1988.What possible recommendation do you suppose the ASI would request to the CPSC at this WV meeting that could POSSIBLE make things better for the youth of America and shove aside a possible operator ban on all youth under the age of 16yrs old?NOTHING!
At least right now,in most States,our kids can ride an appropiately sized ATV unders adult visual supervision and certified..Get the ASI and the CPSC involved,and EVERY kid in EVERY STATE may be FORCED to abide by the manufactures age/cc recommendations that were put in place in the 1988 Consent Decree Agreement.And I dont know ANYBODY who wants that.
Aug 15, 2005 | 08:33 AM
#27
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"....And quite frankly,these folks are simply tired of hearing from him and now,I think most just ignore him.."
"....And quite frankly,these folks are simply tired of hearing from him and now,I think most just ignore him.."
Yet worse than this.... was the fact that these same "brothers"....further sat there like a bump on a log; allowing the DNR to outright LIE about the public process regarding a citizen receiving their right to speak in front of the board !!!
Sick of hearing from me?....no, I'm sick of going to these things with a bunch of spineless bozos who try to deflect their own gutless problems on those who have absolutely no need to fumble around and strap a set on.
Aug 15, 2005 | 08:52 AM
#28
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"...IGNORE? yep,thats exactly what happened to BB last night at our ORV Advisory board meeting..Seems from what I've seen last night,that these folks dont care to hear what he has to say..They certainly screwed him out of his 5 minute of talk time IMO..He legally applied to speak for 5 minutes,and the DNR conveiniently FORGOT to turn in HIS internet application to talk..A heated discussion over this ensued,and they give him only 3 minutes.If ever there were a time that I thought nobody wanted to hear from this guy,THIS WAS IT!...."
"...IGNORE? yep,thats exactly what happened to BB last night at our ORV Advisory board meeting..Seems from what I've seen last night,that these folks dont care to hear what he has to say..They certainly screwed him out of his 5 minute of talk time IMO..He legally applied to speak for 5 minutes,and the DNR conveiniently FORGOT to turn in HIS internet application to talk..A heated discussion over this ensued,and they give him only 3 minutes.If ever there were a time that I thought nobody wanted to hear from this guy,THIS WAS IT!...."
...now tell me...why in the hell didn't even ONE of all those members from ATVOffRoad.net...choose to fumble around; strap a set on <u>AND SAY SOMETHING ABOUT IT</u> ?!?!?! (which is the #1 reason I quit you guys soon after you first started...absolutely no backbone whatsoever and the quick realization that not a one of you would ever have my back in a pinch on the trail or in the boardroom).Do me a favor, Bill....please don't tell everybody on here that I don't do a damn thing for anybody one moment.....and then "sympathize" with me the next.
Aug 15, 2005 | 09:25 AM
#29
Pro Rider
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
The ATVA did not go to West Virginia in 2003 to discuss Windrock
Sure, they didn't want to discuss Windrock, Bill !!!...because if the CPSC knew that the ATVA was out there promoting this "safety free zone" in their publications...how in the hell would their group be considered a legitimate voice for safety related issues?????
"....or any watered down petetions..."
FOR GOD'S SAKE, BILL..... ***THEY WROTE AND DISTRIBUTED THE DAMN THINGS!!!****
"....They were there to fight for our kids right to ride a 4 wheeler under the age of 16,and I think they got that acchomplished..."
What they '<u>did</u>'.... is pull the wool over the CPSC's eyes and make it appear that we were one hell of a lot more organizred and on the same page than we ever have been....period.
(Bill now moves on to address the fact that we have HISTORIC ongoing youth safety education discussions going on that I just 'happened' to reveal the ASI hasn't been invited to participate in....this all despite their asking to do so and his group's insistence that their hard work be simply <u>copied</u> for his group's "convenience").
"...How in the hell do you expect Doug Morris to ask the ATV Safety Institute to be present for a meeting of this nature anyways?...."
Never did so....I asked Mr. Ranney why they weren't invited....his answer was that they would simply copy the ASI's "good" material.
".....Remember the Consent Decree Agreement John?Let me remind you that it was the CPSC and the MANUFACTURES that agreed upon the goofy and redicules AGE/CC sizes that we have had since 1988......"
And as "goofy" as those rules have been....you became an ASI instructor and have had no problem over the years collecting that $100 per student to train them [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
"....What possible recommendation do you suppose the ASI would request to the CPSC at this WV meeting that could POSSIBLE make things better for the youth of America and shove aside a possible operator ban on all youth under the age of 16yrs old?NOTHING!...."
You can go back in this thread (or in any other one)...and you will not find any mention (I've made) of the ASI and the CPSC in the same breath....have you lost your mind or are you just 'babbling on' here?
"....At least right now,in most States,our kids can ride an appropiately sized ATV unders adult visual supervision and certified..Get the ASI and the CPSC involved,and EVERY kid in EVERY STATE may be FORCED to abide by the manufactures age/cc recommendations that were put in place in the 1988 Consent Decree Agreement.And I dont know ANYBODY who wants that..."
Bill....Bill...Bill...
....now why is it...that when our other slick Dick trainer (who has been charging parents $25 to sit in on their own kid's training classes)...was trying with all his might...<u>to kick the ASI out of Michigan</u> (so that he would have a monopoly on the only type of class approved here)....that YOU (at that time) raised all kinds of holy hell over the fact that YOU wouldn't be allowed to teach <u>your</u> ASI certified classes?
Isn't it funny how $4 million dollars in released funds and a potential TRIPLING of what instructors might receive....causes these "non-profit" instructors to "see Jesus" and turn their backs on the very organization that every one of them <u>started out in</u>?!
My guess is that the ASI is happy for you and your new program...they just may have never expected that these instructors they invested their time and effort in years ago...would be the same people ignoring that their still is a consent decree and that there still is a legitimate way to train our youth (that <u>they once embraced)</u> before "money" trashed the ability to 'co-exist' all to hell.
Face it...the only reason you guys want the ASI out of there....is that they meet the requirement for a <U>trained</U> instructor...which will make them a direct COMPETITOR for whatever slice of the pie all you "non-profit instructors" are hoping to gain through this greatly increased funding !!!.
And as always, it will be the kids who will suffer.......
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
The ATVA did not go to West Virginia in 2003 to discuss Windrock
Sure, they didn't want to discuss Windrock, Bill !!!...because if the CPSC knew that the ATVA was out there promoting this "safety free zone" in their publications...how in the hell would their group be considered a legitimate voice for safety related issues?????
"....or any watered down petetions..."
FOR GOD'S SAKE, BILL..... ***THEY WROTE AND DISTRIBUTED THE DAMN THINGS!!!****
"....They were there to fight for our kids right to ride a 4 wheeler under the age of 16,and I think they got that acchomplished..."
What they '<u>did</u>'.... is pull the wool over the CPSC's eyes and make it appear that we were one hell of a lot more organizred and on the same page than we ever have been....period.
(Bill now moves on to address the fact that we have HISTORIC ongoing youth safety education discussions going on that I just 'happened' to reveal the ASI hasn't been invited to participate in....this all despite their asking to do so and his group's insistence that their hard work be simply <u>copied</u> for his group's "convenience").
"...How in the hell do you expect Doug Morris to ask the ATV Safety Institute to be present for a meeting of this nature anyways?...."
Never did so....I asked Mr. Ranney why they weren't invited....his answer was that they would simply copy the ASI's "good" material.
".....Remember the Consent Decree Agreement John?Let me remind you that it was the CPSC and the MANUFACTURES that agreed upon the goofy and redicules AGE/CC sizes that we have had since 1988......"
And as "goofy" as those rules have been....you became an ASI instructor and have had no problem over the years collecting that $100 per student to train them [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]
"....What possible recommendation do you suppose the ASI would request to the CPSC at this WV meeting that could POSSIBLE make things better for the youth of America and shove aside a possible operator ban on all youth under the age of 16yrs old?NOTHING!...."
You can go back in this thread (or in any other one)...and you will not find any mention (I've made) of the ASI and the CPSC in the same breath....have you lost your mind or are you just 'babbling on' here?
"....At least right now,in most States,our kids can ride an appropiately sized ATV unders adult visual supervision and certified..Get the ASI and the CPSC involved,and EVERY kid in EVERY STATE may be FORCED to abide by the manufactures age/cc recommendations that were put in place in the 1988 Consent Decree Agreement.And I dont know ANYBODY who wants that..."
Bill....Bill...Bill...
....now why is it...that when our other slick Dick trainer (who has been charging parents $25 to sit in on their own kid's training classes)...was trying with all his might...<u>to kick the ASI out of Michigan</u> (so that he would have a monopoly on the only type of class approved here)....that YOU (at that time) raised all kinds of holy hell over the fact that YOU wouldn't be allowed to teach <u>your</u> ASI certified classes?
Isn't it funny how $4 million dollars in released funds and a potential TRIPLING of what instructors might receive....causes these "non-profit" instructors to "see Jesus" and turn their backs on the very organization that every one of them <u>started out in</u>?!
My guess is that the ASI is happy for you and your new program...they just may have never expected that these instructors they invested their time and effort in years ago...would be the same people ignoring that their still is a consent decree and that there still is a legitimate way to train our youth (that <u>they once embraced)</u> before "money" trashed the ability to 'co-exist' all to hell.
Face it...the only reason you guys want the ASI out of there....is that they meet the requirement for a <U>trained</U> instructor...which will make them a direct COMPETITOR for whatever slice of the pie all you "non-profit instructors" are hoping to gain through this greatly increased funding !!!.
And as always, it will be the kids who will suffer.......
Aug 15, 2005 | 09:43 AM
#30
Thread Starter
|
Pro Rider
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Is old enough to know better, but too young to stop.
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,681
Likes: 0
From: Northern Virginia, near DC
Challenge to the Environmental lobby
Well now, this has been an interesting and enlightening exchange..... Gee imagine what could we accomplish if we were all on the same side.... I am afraid that it appears that egos have jumped in with both feet.... could we find a middle ground here and discuss the real threat.. the environmental lobby? I am afraid the bickering is driving people away.... and we are losing our focus.
I take it you two know each other ?
I take it you two know each other ?