Yep,
thats EXACTLY what the DNR would LOVE to see the ATVers and Dirtbikers do,FIGHT amongst each other over WHO is responsable for enviro damage..It is STUPID to argue this issue in front of the DNR.They would like nothing more than to see us fighting over land use rights ect..Trails would be shut down faster than an 18 yr old male could lick the sweat off Britney Spears thighs.

I agree that some issues between us need to be addressed,I dis-agree that the DNR need to get involved in these conversations.

 

Yeah I think your right. Well, except for the 18 yr old thing. I'm 28 and I could probably get it done a little quicker!! LOL

 

before or after she had this kid?

 

I'm not picky

 

Does it really matter who is leading the ragefest? The only solution to the whole access problem is for enthusiasts of all motorized sports to come together and work WITH DNR management to 1) correct the mistakes from the past, 2)Bury the hatchets 3) develope and repair trail systems that can be SHARED, thus maximizing what few dollars are available.. and 4) as a combined entitiy, fight the false information that the greens and the right wing media is putting out. We need to get in front of local governments and show them the economic impact our sports have brought to their local areas... and we must work together.. Not pointing fingers at our own groups.

The number one key to solving the root issues is education, and self policing. I don't think we need more tickets.... we need the friendly nudge to our riding buddies to let them know that it is not cool to ignore the damage they are doing when they act out. Eventually, it has a bigger affect on their style than paying a fine. PEER PRESSURE WORKS!

Finally, I challenge clubs to adopt certain trails, and put some time and effort into maintaining them. As a matter of membership, make it mandatory that all club members volunteer x amount of time to trail maintenence. Make it a tailgate party... people will eventually find these events the highlight of the year.... It works folks... all it takes it for one person to get it going.

 

I'm not sure that the Michigan DNR has ever entertained any kind of "divide and conquer" attitude or would love in the least for that to be the case.
The disparity in informed leadership willing to get involved politically and tackle 21st century trail issues has much more to do with the involvement of those successful participants in the process (older cyclists/snowmobilers) over others who are (frankly) not intelligent/informed/willing enough to argue these issues in the first place (which is illustrated by 'non' two-wheeled enthusisasts in Michigan showing up at orv advisory board meetings every 3 or 6 months with absolutely no expectation, up-to-date info or even meaningful/far reaching commentay).

The DNR could care less who brings good management ideas forward or whether those ideas "upset" one group or the other....just as long as those models convey the true spirit of a multi-use trail system that balances the needs of those out there using the resource. The classic example is our own motorcycle representative here in Michigan tring to push for an interconnected trail system...yet using the Paiute Trail in Utah as an example.
What the 4-wheeled community isn't evidently intelligent enough to realize; is that this system is built around the true spirit of multi-use trails....not one which indiscriminately seeks to build single use routes which benefit but a small portion of the resource users and flat out ignores the future realities of who will be using same (for example, our younger orv users have shown absolutely no desire to split up and go their separate ways on single use trails when they meet to ride).

The only people hollering about the potential to "divide" this community are the very same people who have DONE SO already. They use this 'reverse psychology' to effectively sqaush all debate as to why they feel one small segment or our community should be given exclusive access to parts of our land that we will never see. This is no different than the non-motorized community's success in closing thousands of acres of (again) our trails to motorized access for even one/two days a year to allow the young, disabled and/or old to get a glimpse of what they will forever be denied.

And if you don't believe this...walk up to an AMA member at one of these meetings and witness the pure arrogance ooze out! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] (again, isn't it amazing how you've never met a four-wheeled enthusiast who acted the same way towards...them?).

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
Does it really matter who is leading the ragefest? The only solution to the whole access problem is for enthusiasts of all motorized sports to come together and work WITH DNR management

You've got to understand something here in Michigan, DB....I've got club members up here calling the DNR every name in the book every time a ticket is issued instead of simply calming down and getting to the root of the problem itself or simply working with the officers involved.
Classic example.
Just before I left a club up here over lack of leadership and an admitted unwillingness to get involved in anything resembling the political issues at hand; I begged them to get involved <u>beforehand</u> with the law enforcement in any area that they may ride and develop meaningful relationships between these same people. (talk at that meeting immediately turned to what the new bumper sticker and t-shirt should look like).
What do you know...a new riding area opens up and they all pile in their trucks to go up and ride it.
When the tickets are issued ...they immediately get up on the internet and call these officers AND THE ENTIRE DNR every name in the book...crying about how things are so "unfair"....all the while shouting down my insistence that they need contact the agency involved for a simple one-on-one conversation that would prevent same from ever happening again. How do you reason with even organized groups who let things like this happen to them?

The second thing you must unsderstand is that the DNR in Michigan finally stood up and took notice of the fact that certain major instructors here in Michigan (and I'm not talking about Muddy here) were raping the general public in regards to training fees and a host of other issues to the point where the DNR took somewhat of an over correction in the other direction to stop it. This soured the instructors not smart enough to quit publicly bashing the department/threatening to sue them and did absolutely nothing on either side to solve the problem at hand.
What I'm saying here is that you have to have folks intelligent enough to DEAL with the DNR and understand how the department works before you will ever bury the hatchet with them.

"..Not pointing fingers at our own groups...."

C'mon, DB....if you think the thinking members of this community can just sit back and watch what others are doing to it while being chastised/thrown out for even so much as questioning what they are doing...why are orv leaders in other states well informed of just who we are dealing with and what they are after?
I'd like to follow the yellow brick road also...yet i'm not afraid to ask just who that man behind the curtain is either.

"... .The number one key to solving the root issues is education, and self policing. I don't think we need more tickets...."

I guess my question is...if even some of these major riding clubs don't feel that there is any need whatsoever to partner with law enforcement....what choice do these guys have?

"....we need the friendly nudge to our riding buddies to let them know that it is not cool to ignore the damage they are doing when they act out. Eventually, it has a bigger affect on their style than paying a fine. PEER PRESSURE WORKS!...."

You know the problem just as much as I do, DB...the minute some club advertises/is proud of their association with law enforcement...the harder it is to recruit and get those memberships renewed. This is why I have always advocated that these clubs take such a strong stand on this....yet the reality here is that many of these people are more worried about who is going to bring the weenies to their next big ride.

"....Finally, I challenge clubs to adopt certain trails, and put some time and effort into maintaining them. As a matter of membership, make it mandatory that all club members volunteer x amount of time to trail maintenence. Make it a tailgate party... people will eventually find these events the highlight of the year.... It works folks... all it takes it for one person to get it going......"

I agree...we've got over 3,000 miles of trails here in Michigan and the big question for 2006 is....will there be any clubs in the lower peninsula who will be doing trail maintenance this year? (and have they treated their members well enough so that they don't desert said club in the middle of the maintenance cycle....as in years past?).
[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

QUOTE--The DNR could care less who brings good management ideas forward or whether those ideas "upset" one group or the other....just as long as those models convey the true spirit of a multi-use trail system that balances the needs of those out there using the resource.END OF QUOTE-

First off,I completely disagree with that comment..I am completely convinced that if the ORV trail program was completely left in the hands of the DNR for the State of Michigan,that there would be NO MOTORIZED recreational vechicle activity in the forests of this State at all,PERIOD!

QUOTE---
Just before I left a club up here over lack of leadership and an admitted unwillingness to get involved in anything resembling the political issues at hand; I begged them to get involved beforehand with the law enforcement in any area that they may ride and develop meaningful relationships between these same people. (talk at that meeting immediately turned to what the new bumper sticker and t-shirt should look like).
What do you know...a new riding area opens up and they all pile in their trucks to go up and ride it.
When the tickets are issued ...they immediately get up on the internet and call these officers AND THE ENTIRE DNR every name in the book...crying about how things are so "unfair"....all the while shouting down my insistence that they need contact the agency involved for a simple one-on-one conversation that would prevent same from ever happening again. How do you reason with even organized groups who let things like this happen to them?ents of mine that have to endure this unprofessional behaviour from someone who is suppose to protect and serve the very people that they work for..END OF QUOTE--

What BB is so elagantly forgetting to tell you about the above riding story is that the DNR was virtually the only folks in the entire County boardship meetings that wanted to TURN DOWN the riding priveledges in the same county where the folks were ticketed.Just how in the HELL do you expect riders to feel good about contacting these same DNR guys for a one on one conversation of this riding area when it was these same guys that did'nt want the riding area opened in the first place?And he also forgot to tell you of the complete arrogance an unprofessionalism that these same officers displayed when they issued tickets..He also forgot to tell you that when these tickets went in front of the Prosocuting Attorney for that county,that many of them were DROPPED!

I have a meeting I need to get to,so I'll have to comment on the rest later.

 

QUOTE---
The second thing you must unsderstand is that the DNR in Michigan finally stood up and took notice of the fact that certain major instructors here in Michigan (and I'm not talking about Muddy here) were raping the general public in regards to training fees and a host of other issues to the point where the DNR took somewhat of an over correction in the other direction to stop it. This soured the instructors not smart enough to quit publicly bashing the department/threatening to sue them and did absolutely nothing on either side to solve the problem at hand.
What I'm saying here is that you have to have folks intelligent enough to DEAL with the DNR and understand how the department works before you will ever bury the hatchet with them
END OF QUOTE--

Sorry,but even this is not true..The DNR made it their AGENDA to try and model the ATV safety classes after their Marine,Hunter,and Snowmobile classes,in which ALL of these classes do NOT incorporate evaluating a youths skill level while riding their ATV. You simple pay your 25 bucks,bring your kid to one of their classrooms filled with 25-50 students,show them a few video's from the manufactures,have a question and answer session with an UNQUALIFIED and IMPROPERLY certified ATV Safety Instructor,take a 50 question test,and if you get 70% of your test correct,the DNR will issue you your safety certificate.All of this would take about a total of 3 hrs at best..Lets see here Blackballed? 50 students X 25 bucks per student should = 1.250 bucks the way I do my math..Now you tell me EXACTLY WHO is RAPING who here?

And the sad part here is that the youths that take these safety classes from these improperly trained morons are not learning a darn thing in regards to how to PROPERLY operate their ATVs.The REAL Instructors were NOT soured with the fact of the DNR takeover of these classes or the money we lost,we were pissed that we spent HRs and DAYs of our OWN time in Lansing Michigan attempting to inform the very DNR guys that blackballed accusses us of not having the intelligence to deal with,about the safe and responsable way to do these safety classes.Only to have these same irresponsable DNR folks,do things that violated administrative rules that govern these classes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE--
The number one key to solving the root issues is education, and self policing. I don't think we need more tickets...."

I guess my question is...if even some of these major riding clubs don't feel that there is any need whatsoever to partner with law enforcement....what choice do these guys have
END OF QUOTE---

Are your CRAZY Blackballed?Do you realize the amount of man hrs the riding public has put into trying to WORK with the DNR here in Michigan,only to have the same DNR want to turn away riding area's in County's that have the authority/jurisdication to open them.Do you know how many event permits that are turned down?Do you know how many of the DNR quote ORV laws to fit their own agenda's instead of quoting the REAL ORV laws of this State??You SERIOUSLY need to do you damn home work before you start accussing the riding public of not wanting to partner with the DNR.

 

i say that we should host a topless atv ride and all proceeds will go to our trail systems and making it better for all of us i think this could be the next big craze. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] i think we could even pull some greenies from the evil side to our side.