[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE


And this public statement is exactly why these state employees (not to mention the corporate American types mentioned in a previous thread) have little respect for today's generation of orv riders. When this community doesn't possess the restraint needed to even give their own 'at will' <u>employees</u> the respect required to tackle issues in an open forum?.....you can darn well better believe they'll listen one heck of a lot more to environmentalists possessing the intellectual ability to play this game so much <u>smarter</u>. (Question, Bill....have you ever witnessed our atv "god" here in Michigan, RR,...ever talk that way...even 'once' ???).

"...What BB is so elagantly forgetting to tell you about the above riding story is that the DNR was virtually the only folks in the entire County boardship meetings that wanted to TURN DOWN the riding priveledges in the same county where the folks were ticketed....."

What you have to understand about any Department of Natural Resources, Bill...is that these folks will take contrary positions to ours.... a good share of the time. <U>THIS IS LIFE</U>...GET OVER IT!!! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

"....Just how in the HELL do you expect riders to feel good about contacting these same DNR guys for a one on one conversation of this riding area when it was these same guys that did'nt want the riding area opened in the first place?...."

....with the fact being...that you must DEAL with a good portion of the people you meet in this life... whether you are "mad at them" or <u>not</u>.
I mean, just what is this community all about?
If anybody, including the environmentalists, so much as dare "hurt our feelings"....we just call them every name in the book, take our ball....and go home?

"....And he also forgot to tell you of the complete arrogance an unprofessionalism that these same officers displayed when they issued tickets..."

"Gosh', Bill....your club darn well refused to talk to the DNR about this incident because the mean 'ol officers you encountered didn't hand out 'candy' to everybody after they wrote those tickets? I run into unprofessional people everyday....yet my finding has always been that a talk with their superiors is usually the best way to prevent that kind of behavior from affecting anyone else. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

"....He also forgot to tell you that when these tickets went in front of the Prosocuting Attorney for that county,that many of them were DROPPED!...."

(LOL!) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
Well then....a good 'ol "conversation" with the DNR before those cases ever took up my time and my tax money....might've just caused everybody to go home happy....wouldn't of it?
You see, Bill...and this is something I tried to impress upon your club before I left...your riding club is supposed to set an example for all others in the orv community.
When you go to ride somewhere completely unfamiliar....you get with the proper authorities.
When a problem arises with those same authorities....you try and work things out internally with these same people (not bash them and the entire department while hollering about how you will see them "in court").

There's a lesson to be learned here....yet as I witness <u>so</u> many times on this forum....it is far more popular to play 'the victim'. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

]

 

Here is Muddy trying to deny that the DNR was sick of hearing training complaints from the general public and finally had to act:
[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
"....Sorry,but even this is not true..The DNR made it their AGENDA to try and model the ATV safety classes after their Marine,Hunter,and Snowmobile classes,in which ALL of these classes do NOT incorporate evaluating a youths skill level while riding their ATV. You simple pay your 25 bucks,bring your kid to one of their classrooms filled with 25-50 students,show them a few video's from the manufactures,have a question and answer session with an UNQUALIFIED and IMPROPERLY certified ATV Safety Instructor,take a 50 question test,and if you get 70% of your test correct,the DNR will issue you your safety certificate.All of this would take about a total of 3 hrs at best....."

The DNR did not want to change anything in the first place. I told you (and anybody who would listen) years ago... that if these instructors didn't clean up their own house (quit charging parents to sit in on their kid's training classes and quit insisting to the state that it took $60 per student to ADMINISTER said class)..... that the DNR would come on in there with a brrom and clean house...which they finally did. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]
How long did you think it would take before some parent who got clipped $25 for sitting in on his kid's class....actually pulled somebody aside at the DNR?).

"......Lets see here Blackballed? 50 students X 25 bucks per student should = 1.250 bucks the way I do my math..Now you tell me EXACTLY WHO is RAPING who here?....."

You'll get no argument from me that the current "transition" arrangement is ridiculous in regards to $25 for a written test. Yet what seemed even more insulting was the fact that negotiations with the hands-on trainers started out at $90 each.....with the riders here in Michigan footing the entire bill?(from your

"....And the sad part here is that the youths that take these safety classes from these improperly trained morons are not learning a darn thing in regards to how to PROPERLY operate their ATVs....."

The riders of this state have absolutley no problem contributing to your 'non-profit' for training kids...what they are 'insulted' by right now, is the fact that you instructors want to take $600,000 out of our sticker money to do it while all the while demanding that parents <u>shouldn't</u> burden the lion's share of these costs. Sorry, but the riders of this state aren't in the business of subsidizing partents able to afford $10,000 machines while watching instructors compete over that kind of money.

"....The REAL Instructors were NOT soured with the fact of the DNR takeover of these classes or the money we lost,we were pissed that we spent HRs and DAYs of our OWN time in Lansing Michigan attempting to inform the very DNR guys that blackballed accusses us of not having the intelligence to deal with,about the safe and responsable way to do these safety classes....."

C'mon, Bill....you <u>didn't</u> waste your time and it looks like 'now' that you will be handsomely rewarded for your lobbying efforts. Please don't give us this 'sob story'...and especially with these kind of numbers being bandied about. These kids have an option to take the hands-on class and we're going to pay for it. Yeah, you didn't get "$90" per student...yet would somebody please step up here and tell me where they can make $1200 per afternoon and write off every expense connected with making that money???
We would have even been behind you a lot more....yet when the time came for SOMEBODY to stand up and denounce the fact that these parents were being charged just to be there?....there was not <u>one</u> instructor who wanted to talk a word about it! (which is why the DNR had to finally step in and take over a program that was just plain out of control. You guys slept with the dogs....you got fleas).

"...Are your CRAZY Blackballed?Do you realize the amount of man hrs the riding public has put into trying to WORK with the DNR here in Michigan,only to have the same DNR want to turn away riding area's in County's that have the authority/jurisdication to open them.Do you know how many event permits that are turned down?Do you know how many of the DNR quote ORV laws to fit their own agenda's instead of quoting the REAL ORV laws of this State??You SERIOUSLY need to do you damn home work before you start accussing the riding public of not wanting to partner with the DNR......"

You can't have it both ways, Bill.....you come on here callling these people every name in the book/publicly denouncing the DNR.....and then try and convince the rest of us that you are busting your butt to work with them. Again, as much as I don't care for the methods of this gentlemen you previously (and vehemently) defended before you quit his club in disgust (never willing to admit that "I told you so" [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img])....this man is one heck of a lot more intelligent than you when it comes to <u>getting what he wants</u>.....<u>and just how one goes about it</u> (with all due respect).

Isn't there anybody on here who has commentary regarding the original subject of this topic? Is there anybody out there who is also pointing out the fact that not only are many of these motorcyclists "agin" us....but the fact that they have tried to separate 'our' damage from 'theirs' to achieve altogether separate goals? (I apoligize for going off-topic....it's just that many 'non-profiters' here in Michigan don't necessarily like the curtain being drawn back and that many of these topics are related).

Again, it is the folks who actually ask WHY we are not all working together and point out the facts behind it....who get the very least of responses in these forums.

 

Blackballed,
you are so full of -hit,I dont even know where to begin,or even IF I want to start?

You admitted that the DNR will often take contrary postions to ours[ORV Operators]..If so,than why do you feel that the riding public has to kiss the DNRs *** to get anything done in this State[the DNR are suppose to work FOR US not AGAINST us] or WHY we have to accept their low life arrogant attitudes when they stop us on a trail?I dont know about YOU,but I'll allways start out by GIVING respect to others I first meet,but you damn better beleive that I expect RESPECT BACK in return for giving it..I dont have to ''accept'' this type of behavior from anybody,nor do I have to ''accept that 'THIS IS LIFE and GET OVER IT---ORV Operators help pay these guys [DNR] wages and they took an oath of office when they accepted their job to PROTECT and to SERVE..I did'nt see a damn thing anywhere in the DNR training manual that gives it officers the right to be arrogant,flambouyant and disrespectful when they make routine stops of riding citizens that are lost and/or in distress.

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QUOTE--"....Just how in the HELL do you expect riders to feel good about contacting these same DNR guys for a one on one conversation of this riding area when it was these same guys that did'nt want the riding area opened in the first place?...."END OF QUOTE---....

BLACKBALLS RESPONSE-with the fact being...that you must DEAL with a good portion of the people you meet in this life... whether you are "mad at them" or not.
I mean, just what is this community all about?

No John,you see,when somebody does the riding community wrong,[such was the case with the DNR being virtually the only entity that did not want the 4 County roadways opened in the LP meetings]we dont plan on going over now and kiss their *** and ask for THEIR guidance when we know DARN well its these guys that dont want us riding in this county in the first place.You can go over and kiss their *** if YOU want,but I choose not to..

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"....And he also forgot to tell you of the complete arrogance an unprofessionalism that these same officers displayed when they issued tickets..."

BLACKBALLS RESPONSE--"Gosh', Bill....your club darn well refused to talk to the DNR about this incident because the mean 'ol officers you encountered didn't hand out 'candy' to everybody after they wrote those tickets? I run into unprofessional people everyday....yet my finding has always been that a talk with their superiors is usually the best way to prevent that kind of behavior from affecting anyone else.

Once again John,DNR officers are paid to PROTECT and to SERVE..Nobody asked for candy to be handed out instead of tickets,but when these lost and distressed riders REQUESTED directions to get back on the right trail and the officers did'nt budge a finger of assistance,[only MORE arrogance]the public image of these officers will be dismisal at best.And yes,their superiors were contacted.

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"....He also forgot to tell you that when these tickets went in front of the Prosocuting Attorney for that county,that many of them were DROPPED!...."

(LOL!)BLACKBALLS RESPONSE
Well then....a good 'ol "conversation" with the DNR before those cases ever took up my time and my tax money....might've just caused everybody to go home happy....wouldn't of it?
You see, Bill...and this is something I tried to impress upon your club before I left...your riding club is supposed to set an example for all others in the orv community.
When you go to ride somewhere completely unfamiliar....you get with the proper authorities.
When a problem arises with those same authorities....you try and work things out internally with these same people (not bash them and the entire department while hollering about how you will see them "in court").

Much of the riding community is pretty much fed-up with the arrogant style of many DNR officials in this State..Their inability and unwilllingness to work WITH riding clubs and arrogant ORV stops,have divided much of the DNR and the riding public..I totally agree that we need to make some amends here,but this is a give and take situation.And so far,to much has been TAKEN away from ORV enthusiasts in this State.

 

Im going to lock this thread for 24 hrs or so and see if you guys can calm down a little.

OK, Im going to open this back up for a while and see what goes on. I think its fairly obvious that you 2 guys have a few areas that you disagree on. Is there anything that you 2 agree on? There has to be something.

 

We agree on a LOT of issues...the problem has been that Muddy was forced to 'partner' with leaders of the motorcycle community who (also) got their hands slapped by the state and their training funds taken away. (which wasn't their fault either; save for an unwillingness to take their fellow instructor aside when he came up with this idea of charging parents to attend their kid's classes).

These 'leaders' are the same guys who shout me down at orv board meetings, refuse to give their contact information out to the general public and get guys like his (former) club president to make certain that <u>anything</u> which happens in their "multi-user group" meetings (a group our DNR claims to never have even heard of) is <u>never</u> (God forbid) revealed to the general public at large.(you frankly just get sick of asking after a while).

I like Bill and will always have a ton of respect for what he's done for this sport. Yet when I implore him to ask the tough questions of these guys "behind the curtain" here in Michigan?...I think he finds it 'difficult' to weigh the record-busting $600,000 per year these guys are pushing for presently to train on the one hand...and the simple difference between right and wrong on the other. This is no reflection on Bill's <u>character</u>...just a different philosophy in regards to how our priorities should be set when evaluating orv leadership's role in solving all these problems and the value our 'peon' community gains from being informed even 'semi' regularly on those same issues.
For example, we are into our 8th week of our chairman's 'secretary' inability to get even the minutes posted of a meeting which took 6 months to happen <U>after</U> the last February meeting (a meeting they both cancelled together).
When you've got guys cancelling your ability to meet with them and not pushing their cohort(s) to even publish the record (for those unable to attend) of when we all finally do...it's tough to get anybody involved in this mess.

 

We agree on a LOT of issues...the problem has been that Muddy was forced to 'partner' with leaders of the motorcycle community who (also) got their hands slapped by the state and their training funds taken away END OF QUOTE---

I was'nt forced to partner with ANY cycle group..And whats even funnier yet,is BB tells you readers that these guys got their hands 'slapped' by the State..Now mind you,these SAME guys that BB accuses of having their hands 'slapped' by the State,are the SAME guys that the DNR 'personally' hand picked as their reveiw and advice commitee with the new ORV safety program and assistance in re-writing some of the ancient ORV laws we have here in Michigan.Are'nt these guys that just got their hands 'slapped' concidered so awful by our State??
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------QUOTE--I like Bill and will always have a ton of respect for what he's done for this sport. Yet when I implore him to ask the tough questions of these guys "behind the curtain" here in Michigan?...I think he finds it 'difficult' to weigh the record-busting $600,000 per year these guys are pushing for presently to train on the one hand...and the simple difference between right and wrong on the other END OF QUOTE

Me afraid to ask questions?ARE YOU CRAZY?--I think it was ME that stood up in the Febuarary 9th ORV meeting and 'pointed fingers' directly at the DNR for their inept attitude towards our States ORV safety cirriculm..And if you were there,you'd know my speech was harsh and to the point..So harsh,that it was that particular speech that identified many of the safety issues that the DNR had failed to bring even one ounce of concern to,and promoted the DNRs ORV safety committee that is in exsistance RIGHT NOW.

I have never been accussed of not asking questions and not pointing fingers when they need pointing [except from BB]..If anything,my peers have told me that I need to 'cool my jets' sometimes..And I certainly dont need BB to tell ME the differance between right and wrong..Money will never get in the way of my personal beliefs..Years ago,when I was a Union Rep,the company would sometimes try 'buy' tactics to sway me to vote on issues that would benefit their company instead of their employees..I could'nt be BOUGHT than,and I be damned if I'll let $$ change my beliefs now,so you can just kiss your 600.000 dollar safety fund garbage right where the sun dont shine,cause I cant be BOUGHT.

 

You see?....we really <u>do</u> love each other! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Which atv group causes the most damage? (our original topic)....I would say that the entire community bears that burden....simply because 99% of us couldn't qualify those two words in terms of what is legally considered to be <U>so</U> today...in the first place. We've got over 3,000 miles of trails here in Michigan....with even our DNR <u>admitting</u> that they have no quantitive concept of what damage has been done in the past, what is happening today or what the effect of any such damage will be in the future (although any theories regarding the last concept; they've pretty much got a 'handle' on). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

Again, if we can't hold up people in our own community which even a half-witted environmentalistand his or her lawyer coudn't eat for lunch?....who actually "caused" the damage becomes a pretty damn mute point in the big picture here.

 

"Its a beautiful day in the neighborhood.............................. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]"

 

If my memory serves me right,I think Michigan takes on about 30 MILLION dollars a year in timber service orders..In order for timber harvests to happen in this State,our Forests must be CERTIFIED forests..At out last ORV meeting,it appeared to me that our Forest lands here in Michigan might have a chance of being turned down as certified forests,which mean that no more timber harvest sales can happen.A DNR authority stood up and told the users that we might not get this certification because of indiscriminate ORV damage..

I was also told that the folks that actually certify Michigan forests are from Cali and are actually enviro freaks.

Its going to be real tough to beat characters like this.

 

If Barbera Boxer is involved in any way, your screwed.