It's flat out amazing to me, Bill.....how you can defend these guys one minute while holding them both up as shining examples of who folks should contact with their concerns....while previously coming up with this:

Thursday, August 7th ATV Connection Forums:

"...IGNORE?
yep,thats exactly what happened to BB last night at our ORV Advisory board meeting..Seems from what I've seen last night,that these folks dont care to hear what he has to say..They certainly screwed him out of his 5 minute of talk time IMO..He legally applied to speak for 5 minutes,and the DNR conveiniently FORGOT to turn in HIS internet application to talk..A heated discussion over this ensued,and they give him only 3 minutes.If ever there were a time that I thought nobody wanted to hear from this guy,THIS WAS IT!...."

This had little do with the "DNR" Bill..the people who refused the public's right to speak that night were the same people who cancelled our meetings and sat silent when that travesty was announced.
I've witnessed your buddy Bill get on up there at these meetings and talk for OVER 5 minutes with Dick joking beforehand about the fact that he hadn't even so much as filled out or turned in his request card.

Please don't send folks on the same wild goose chase that I've been on for these last 6 years with not only these two; but other 'leaders' who've pulled the same crap. If the best referral you can come up with is two die-hard AMA/motorcycle enthusiasts....you've probably just made my point in regards to how screwed up this community has become more eloquently than I could have ever.

 

John,

Just exactly WHAT coralation does you not receiving you full 5 minutes of talk time at this ORV board meeting and me refering Walt to these same ORV leaders,have to do with each other?

I fully agreed with you that you got screwed out of your full 5 minutes of speaking time..BUT,that does not mean that because of that particular circumstance and because of what transpired in that ORV meeting,that I should or should not recommend these leaders to Walt..It only means that I felt you got screwed out of your 5 minutes,PERIOD!.To the defense of the Board members,I cant think of many folks that support you or very many of the issues you've brought to the table in the last 5 years,so really,no one really wanted to hear what you had to say anyways,hence,you may have got short changed with your talk time in this meeting.

 

When you are prevented from speaking as to the actions of these same two people you mention above and the man who lied about your right to speak in the first place (as his co-workers have confirmed)....we'll let the folks here draw their <u>own</u> conclusions.

 

Its not so much that anyone lied to you,as it is that no one in the room wanted to hear what you had to say in the first place..

John,
You have some very good idea's,but the way you present some of them are redicules at best..All you have personally done politically the last 5 years is BITCH in the WRONG ears..And its only got you high blood pressure and resentments towards others..

Are you doing ANYTHING good with the new ORV update plan?Have you even taking a second of your valuable time to send a letter to Becky Humpries,your Senator,and the DNR?Have you advised all your buddies to do the same?

Make GOOD use of yourself instead of cursing up the wrong ears all the time.

 

Besides the fact that I have not only sent in my commentary and made a FOIA request to obtain others (given the fact that no club had given an official position in the FORMATION of this plan and decided to concentrate on competing legislation they refused to reveal <u>instead</u>)....when "Ip want to talk to our DNR Director (Ms. Humphries) ***I GO TO OUR NRC MEETINGS IN LANSING <u>AND SPEAK TO HER IN PERSON!!!</u>***.

I've always been received warmly by these folks and (for some reason) they are always interested in what I have to say <u>and (amazingly) have said as much!</u> (this welcome is 'probably' given the fact that nobody has ever come before them on these issues who wasn't looking for more money and didn't speak to them like some city slicker out of the Detroit suburbs).

Getting back to the topic at hand and corporate involvement.
We just had a member of our orv advisory board (who was employed as a dealer's rep for Michigan) just recently pack up and decide she was going to be a missionary somewhere. When you announce that your state has just lost their main contact with corporate America....and the orv users assembled that day just sit there with glassy looks in their eyes like 'so what?' .....and with not question one as to what happens 'now' not only with this position but the vacancy on their board which is down to 1 or 2 members out of 7 and can't even assemble 'a quorum' to actually carry out their responsibilities.....is it these corporate folk's responsibility to shake some sense into our community and get them involved....or is it the dumb ***** who sit there every 3 or even six months <u>waiting</u> to be hand fed (FOR THE FIRST TIME) whatever those 1 or 2 people 'left' on this board want to feed them?

Sorry, Walt....but I've witnessed the yahoos who walk in these orv meeting doors as if they've done their part in getting 'involved' by simply 'showing up'. They have absolutely nothing to say that is relevant to the 'big' picture or seem to even grasp the most basic issues at hand; yet they get all excited in regards to defending their leader's 'right' to constantly keep the vast majority of this riding community in the dark about each and every issue that comes down the pipe. Coporate involvement would be great....yet my opinion is that corporate America doesn't feel that 99% of these people even know enough to come out of the rain! Why should they feel any obligation to 'partner' with those who don't even have the capacity to understand/act on these same issues in the first place? (in comparison; this is why these older cyclists and snowmobilers have historically <U>bridged</U> that gap and successfully/intelligently built what they did with comparitively much <u>more</u> of this corporate assistance).

Corporate America doesn't have the time to deal with representatives whose demonstrated priorities seem to lie in spending 90% of their efforts fighting for more sticker money to be made availiable for training 20 kids @ $60-$100 each (and tagging each parent for another $25 just to 'be there') through their write-everything-off "non-profits". [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

First off, I think we all understand there is a history between BBalled and Muddy. Both in their own way are trying to fight the battle.. I just wish they could stand on the same side of the issue and work together instead of this constant mudslinging. It has become a bore.

Second, I am not sure calling for corporate funds to lobby the issue is the right approach. You have to remember the CPSC guidelines were a result of corporate giants becoming involved, and that has harmed us more than helped over the years in retrospect. Now, there are many damn good safety practices in there that we should all abide, but you can't legislate common sense...

Any way, the real answer has always laid in the hands of the people. Corporations do not vote.. People do. Involve the local populace, and apply pressure to the local elected officials, and I can just about guarantee your opinions will be heard. The problem is that there is this feeling that one person cannot make a difference. That can't be further from the truth.

Now let's consider what corporations are doing. For one, they are sponsoring trail systems and ATV events around the country. Honda for one, has built several training centers for both dirt bikes and ATV riding instruction. Included in their curriculum and training centers, are sections on the environment and the possible damage our riding can cause to a fragile environment. Don't think that the GREENS haven't noticed. This education is making a difference and shows a proactive response to the environmentalists biggest complaint. Eventually the word will get out. I'd like to see a program where seminars on subjects like this and responsible riding are offered at many of the numerous jamborees that are held each year. (How about it HONDA, SUZUKI, YAMAHA, KAWASAKI, ARCTIC CAT, POLARIS, why not sponsor this )

So the answer is that work is being done. But not in ways that are apparent. We need better oversight on funds that are being generated. We need national organizations working local issues and that is where you and I come in. There is a national Org out there called the Blue Ribbon Coalition that is fighting the fight in the courts, in the regional meetings that are hosted by DNRs around the country etc, but they need people like you and me to support them with dues, and with information when these events occur. They have a wealth of data that we can use.

The issue is, the work that we need done is going to come from people like you and me.. and it is a thankless job for sure. But a worthy cause none the less.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"..First off, I think we all understand there is a history between BBalled and Muddy. Both in their own way are trying to fight the battle.. I just wish they could stand on the same side of the issue and work together instead of this constant mudslinging. It has become 'a bore'...".

I stand here willing and <U>ready</U> to take responsibility for "boring" you, DB....yet why has the use of <u>real-life</u> examples here in Michigan (which have given even further validation to many of the points YOU have made over time and even agreed with <u>at that time</u>) "now" caused you so much distress?
Do you think that somehow simply standing up like a man and telling the truth in regards to what I have witnessed over the years....is going to make guys like Muddy "happy" who are out there slamming my DNR every time they get a ticket or get into his "non-profit's" pocket?.
No problem here if you'd like me to leave. I'll never control people like Muddy insisting that folks up here contact "motorcycle leaders" to solve atv issues...and probably shouldn't bother saving these folks the effort or time.(if they want to try accessing leaders 100% uninterested in atv issues...have at it!).

"...Second, I am not sure calling for corporate funds to lobby the issue is the right approach. You have to remember the CPSC guidelines were a result of corporate giants becoming involved, and that has harmed us more than helped over the years in retrospect. Now, there are many damn good safety practices in there that we should all abide, but you can't legislate common sense..."


If it weren't for the CPSC guidelines, DB....we wouldn't have regulation one in this sport and you know it. This "you can't legislate common sense" crap was the same darn phrase these people down south were using AT the last major CPSC hearing TO TRY AND KEEP THE GOVERNMENT OFF THEIR BACKS AND "ALLOW" WELDING A CAR SEAT TO THE BACK OF THEIR QUADS AND GO 'HELMETLESS' UP THE SIDE OF THEIR MOUNTAINSIDE!!

The ATVA/AMA didn't 'ask' the public (in their <u>petition</u> to the CPSC) to stand behind a firm set of rules or regulations when they showed up that day in West Virginia.....these people AND THIS COMMUNITY can't even agree whether you ought to wear a brain bucket on your head or which age is proper for what size machine! (which is a direct result of <u>both</u> those organizations unwilling to lose member one over those issues <u>and many others</u> which require a 'non-profit' employee to stand up like a man).

"...Any way, the real answer has always laid in the hands of the people. Corporations do not vote.. People do...."

"Again".....corporations have every reason to vote and/or throw their weight around politically. A safe sport is good for everybody!.
Yet when the people involved in that sport can't hold a candle either intelligently, politically and/or even common sense-wise to enthusiasts like the sledders and motorcyclists that they have had a long history in dealing with in the past..WHY IN THE HECK SHOULD THEY WASTE THEIR TIME WITH A BUNCH OF 'GOOFS' WHO CAN'T EVEN FIGURE OUT THAT ATVS ARE KILLING/MAIMING KIDS EVERY DAY....or what to <u>do</u> about it???

"...The problem is that there is this feeling that one person cannot make a difference. That can't be further from the truth....."

It is the truth, DB...and that fact is no better illustrated by the brick wall I've run up to here in Michigan...a state with more trails (and you would think rabid enthusiasts) than any other.
I appreciate your "blue skies ahead" attitude...yet the fact remains that this sport is in serious trouble. Not because there aren't plenty of us out here who want to work hard towards saving it....it is because there are far to few out there willing to act with the no b.s. attitudes that their fathers and grandfathers approached these same problems on their sleds and cycles.
Yes, don't be 'afraid' to start something on your own...but let me give folks one piece of advice from a guy involved almost every day for over 7 years on these issues....make certain that the people around you either don't have financial interests as their 'non-stated' priority and make sure the balance of those people don't value bumper stickers, t-shirts or "who's going to bring the weenies to the next ride" over doing the HARD work of having to "sometimes" get in people's faces.(we have just as much problem within our community as we do fighting public employees who don't feel they work for us and/or rabid environmentalists).

"...We need better oversight on funds that are being generated....."

That's 'great', DB...yet when foks like myself point out locations where these funds DON'T have oversight and that this will require folks to strap a set on and shine the light of day on this practice?....we are "bores". [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

"...We need national organizations working local issues and that is where you and I come in. There is a national Org out there called the Blue Ribbon Coalition that is fighting the fight in the courts, in the regional meetings that are hosted by DNRs around the country etc, but they need people like you and me to support them with dues, and with information when these events occur. They have a wealth of data that we can use.The issue is, the work that we need done is going to come from people like you and me.. and it is a thankless job for sure. But a worthy cause none the less....."

The Blue Ribbon Coalition is a gret organization working on issues mainly (far) west of the Mississippi and one worth supporting. My question is....why can't we get national groups like the AMA/ATVA to stand up like men and go after places like Windrock where they ride doubled up with no helmets? Why can't we get them to deliver meaningful petitions (when they have the opportunity) to the CPSC which spell out IN DETAIL what the majority of us <u>intelligent</u> riders support? Why do we have leaders in these national groups staring at the ground/shuffling their feet and offering the fact that they will give $100 to anyone who catches them riding without a helmet...yet want to talk about how most atv users are "hunters" that don't NEED them because their parent group never had the nuts to take a stand on the issue either?

I probably lead my state in giving money to atv groups all around this country....yet I'll never give another dollar until someone shows up who's not afraid to tell the truth about what we've been all about and continue to be about to this day.

 

BBalled, you are looking to pick a fight, and I am not going to be a willing participant. The information I presented is valid, maybe not totally in MI, but as a whole I think it stands on it's own. Whether you agree with it or not is not the issue, nor should it be the source for starting another side argument.

I do not subscribe to the use of attack mode to make my point, nor do I care to publicly deride individuals in an attempt to be heard. I understand your motivation.. and frustration.. but man, you need an outlet for all that anger built up inside. I am just about the only person on this planet that you can have a half way intelligent conversation with and now you seem to have turned on me like a bad meal...

I don't get it...

You need to understand that others have opinions that may not coincide with your thought processes. That does not make them good ideas, or bad ones.. they are just different. It is this diversity of opinion that others are trying to tap into so they can either formulate their own, or use as a sounding board to validate their thoughts.

Mudslinging is not the answer. Searching out comments by those you have a disdain for and using very heated commentary is not the answer either and does not represent the act of communication. Surely you recognize the impact of this tactic as being destructive, not constructive.

It is this recurring rant that is getting to be a bore. Not because I want you to go away, not because I don't care what you have to say or think it is un-important.. it is because I know that if that anger can be turned into something positive, it could move the sport forward. Call it optimism...

Oh and I feel that being a "Man" and acting as an adult means a lot more than being able to out shout others. Personally, I feel that listening to what others have to say is a much more important attribute. It allows me to update my database, and formulate or modify my opinions based on what others know, not just my own little world. I'll be the first one to admit I don't know everything.. and I count on others to fill in the holes of my ever crumbling knowledge base.

I am sorry, but I am not going to be baited into one of your personal tyrades...

I sincerely hope the rest of your day goes better than this morning has.

Walt, I hope this has not taken away from your seach for other's opinion... We need thought provoking discussion to continue. Great topic...

 

QUOTE---First off, I think we all understand there is a history between BBalled and Muddy. Both in their own way are trying to fight the battle.. I just wish they could stand on the same side of the issue and work together instead of this constant mudslinging. It has become a bore.END OF QUOTE---

Well,beleive it or not,we're[Blackballed and Muddy] are'nt as far apart as some of you may think..We have both been on the fight for our rights to ORV issues for many years,MANY times,BOTH on the SAME side of the issues...HOWEVER,After dealing with Blackballed for allmost 5 yrs now,I've COMPLETELY given into the fact that NOBODY does things the way BB feels or thinks they need to be done in the ORV community..

I've reached this anology on the mere fact that of the 8 or 9 ATV related websites he's been involved with in the last 5 years,ALL of them[at one time or another] has BANNED him from posting on their site.Some will never allow him to return..I also base this anology on the fact that of the 6-7 ATV clubs he's been associated with in the last 5 yrs,NONE of them meet his personal agenda and as a result,he has QUIT them all..Nobody understands BB anymore or his agenda,whatever it might be?

I once had a close friend we'll call Ted..Ted was married 5 times in 7 yrs,all to DIFFERANT women..After a short period of marriage to each of them,Ted use to tell me about how 'god awful' these women were after awhile and that HE could no longer handle being married..When Ted approached me with the 5th marriage and than a divorce shortly thereafter,I told Ted that if I were married 5 times in seven years,that I MIGHT just have to start taking a look at ME!!!

Have'nt been on good speaking terms with Ted in years now..

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Dragginbutt
"...I am just about the only person on this planet that you can have a half way intelligent conversation with and now you seem to have turned on me like a bad meal... I don't get it..."

Dragginbutt earlier in this thread:

"..First off, I think we all understand there is a history between BBalled and Muddy. Both in their own way are trying to fight the battle.. I just wish they could stand on the same side of the issue and work together instead of this constant mudslinging. <u>It has become a bore</u>...."

As I explained to you earlier, DB...it is very difficult to: (#1) contribute to these discussions by giving real-life (not "oh, wouldn't it be nice") examples ON TOPIC regarding what <u>has</u> happened here in Michigan without drawing in other Michiganders who continually seek to go OFF of it...and (#2) deal with others (above) who don't want to hear anything about the less flattering side of this sport unless it reflects some rosy picture of us all holding hands around the campfire singing "Koom-bye-yah" until the cows come home.

I have overwhelmingly agreed with much of what you have had to say in the past and supported YOU like "no other person on this planet" ALSO (up here)....yet when one of your <u>fellow</u> safety instructors is (heaven forbid) 'questioned' as to how he negatively deals with the DNR or why a good portion of my sticker money is suddenly going to guys making $1,200 to $2,000 or better <u>in an afternoon</u>?....you call "real-life" soldiers in this fight "bores"; while at the same turning THEIR right to cut through the b.s. and get to the heart of the problem......against <u>them</u>? (I'm sorry, but this crap below sounds like it could have came right out of the mouth of every liberal college professor I've ever met....):

(DB above):
"...You need to 'understand' that others have opinions that may not coincide with your thought processes. That does not make them good ideas, or bad ones.. they are just different. It is this "***diversity***" of opinion...."

Did you ever think that there just might be people out here who have dealt with these "everything will be alright if you just sit back and let a "non-profit" do (all) the talking" types....and that <U>some</U> of us are not stupid enough to believe that the AMA/ATVA's (or corporate America's) present ridiculous time-consuming obsession with "racing"....will ultimately save/benefit this sport?

I talk about subjects which force these guys to actually 'walk the talk' when it comes to the rosy b.s. they turn in on their tax returns each year....and the fact <u>is</u>, a lot of these guys <U>just darn well don't</U> <u>like</u> being asked what they do for a living each day or what they have done for us 'lately'.....period.

And as far as "acting like a man"???.....that's a concept which unfortunately died off with the sledder and cyclist generation who took said concept for granted....and who got the job you still (remarkably) see marked evidence of today....<u>DONE</u>.