DB,
In trying to stay within forum guidelines,I am often hesitant to respond on some issues,however,there has been some very serious mis-information being throw at instructors in the State of Michigan,and I request that you allow me to straighten this up..

First and foremost,the DNR did NOT take the safety program over because of complaints from parents on our prices..In fact,prices had N.O.T.H.I.N.G. to do with the DNR takeover. The GOVERNOR of Michigan gave an excutive order to move Michigans ORV program from the Dept of Education,over and into the hands of the DNR,because the DNR was implementing our Marine,Hunting,and Snowmobile safety programs....thus....she move the ORV safety program to the DNR..

And PLEASE,do some checking into BBs claims of Michigan instructors making 1200-2000 [or more] bucks in a afternoon safety class,on a large portion of what he calls HIS PORTION of the ORV sticker fund..This is all a flat out LIE...In fact,we dont see ONE PENNY of the money in this safety fund for our classes..

Now the LARGE portion of BBs sticker fund that is suppose to help make FELLOW Instructors like me rich in an afternoon?Well,Sir,of the 16.25 ORV sticker fee that a rider is charged each yr,a measly ONE DOLLAR of this 16.25 goes into a ORV safety education fund so that users can get safety classes at a discount..And the only ones that have access to these funds are law enforcment officers or intermediate school districts..Currently,an officer that is certified by the DNR can fill a classroom with 25-50 kids,show them a few 20 minute manufactures video's on ORV safety,TRY and answer some questions related to ORV laws,than administer a 50 question ORV test..This might all take 3 hrs...These ARE the guys that are SUCKING this fund DRY!

 

Sounds like you have a confusing mess in MI for sure. I know from my personal experience that talking ASI training, the instructor (Who in this case is an independent contractor) gets around $35 per student, out of the $100 the student/factory pays. I've seen a max of 8 students per class, with the average being 5 or 6. And I'll always let a parent or a brother/sister and any other kid who can't afford the class to sit in for free.

So lets see, I have to find a riding area, set it up, transport several of my own ATV's for the class to use (Each person needs their own machine) Gas, food and my time, and I might "make" a hundred bucks for my day. Not exactly a get rich deal.

I also provide free training to anyone who needs personal instruction to get up to a safe level of riding... So I think it is safe to say, that we don't do this to get rich. I could make more money at a part time job at Lowes.

It isn't about the money, it is all about meeting people and making friends, and passing on what it took years to learn.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: MUDDY4LIFE
DB, In trying to stay within forum guidelines,I am often hesitant to respond on some issues,however,there has been some very serious mis-information being throw at instructors in the State of Michigan,and I request that you allow me to straighten this up..First and foremost,the DNR did NOT take the safety program over because of complaints from parents on our prices..In fact,prices had N.O.T.H.I.N.G. to do with the DNR takeover. The GOVERNOR of Michigan gave an excutive order to move Michigans ORV program from the Dept of Education,over and into the hands of the DNR,because the DNR was implementing our Marine,Hunting,and Snowmobile safety programs....thus....she move the ORV safety program to the DNR..

Parents complained about getting charged to attend their kid's safety classes and instructors were taking $60 (per pupil) out of a $100 class they sub-contracted (didn't even teach) to "administer" each and every pupil trained.
If you don't think those issues (and the fact that people complained about same to folks in the governor's position) led to the light of day finally being shown on this program?....you're kidding yourself.

".....And PLEASE,do some checking into BBs claims of Michigan instructors making 1200-2000 [or more] bucks in a afternoon safety class,on a large portion of what he calls HIS PORTION of the ORV sticker fund..This is all a flat out LIE..."

They were getting $100 per kid to teach these classes until the fund went dry at 20 kids max per class.....our last meeting projected $60/per kid (proposed) with $600,000 made availiable....you do the math.

"...In fact,we dont see ONE PENNY of the money in this safety fund for our classes.."

This is after the DNR slapped your hands and <u>forced</u> you all get into some kind of reasonable bargaining position (do you want "some" or "none"?)

"...Now the LARGE portion of BBs sticker fund that is suppose to help make FELLOW Instructors like me rich in an afternoon?Well,Sir,of the 16.25 ORV sticker fee that a rider is charged each yr,a measly ONE DOLLAR of this 16.25 goes into a ORV safety education fund so that users can get safety classes at a discount....."

His "buddy" in safety training recently lobbied/proposed making it double that; all the while beginning negotiations with the state at (not the $60 they ended up with) but $90 per kid they wanted each rider of this state to flip the bill for.(this is why the DNR looks at some of you as nothing but 'opportunists'...."we'll settle for $60; but half again as much is <u>better</u>!").

"....And the only ones that have access to these funds are law enforcment officers or intermediate school districts..Currently,an officer that is certified by the DNR can fill a classroom with 25-50 kids,show them a few 20 minute manufactures video's on ORV safety,TRY and answer some questions related to ORV laws,than administer a 50 question ORV test..This might all take 3 hrs...These ARE the guys that are SUCKING this fund DRY!...."

These guys love to talk about how the DNR "screwed them for no reason"....yet DON'T want to talk about the $600,000 they all hope to make a living off once the fund is increased, the formulas are re-written and the Michigan orv sticker buyer pays <u>more</u> money to subsidize well-off parents affording $10,000 machines. (we all want to subsidize this training in some way....we just want the lion's share of these costs to be paid BY THE PARENTS THEMSELVES...leaving more money in our funds to do the important work that needs to be done.) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Sorry guys....but you all had a darn good thing going before you tried to get a little more out of those parents for (unbelievably) 'attending' their kid's classes (and the state had to finally put a stop to it that ruined a promising program even further).

 

Its the same old BS with BB and im not going to CONTINUE to participate in a forum that is fed with BS and outright LIES from somebody who did'nt do their homework,but yet,thinks that for some unexplained reason,he feels he is an authority to speak on behalf of issues he knows very little,if ANYTHING about..

If DB needs truth,he has my e-mail,and I will give him any contacts to verify what I tell him..One only needs to see that amount of ATV related forums that BB is banned from to figure out who is telling the truth.

I wont be participating in this garbage anymore.

 

Back to the topic....I think a big problem we have in this community is the fact(?) that not a person up here on these forums....can name the <U>last</U> person representing "us" who talked to corporate America....and what that conversation was all about? (what does a corporation have to say about safety-free places such as Windrock; do they see any value in sending individual representation to multi-user group summits; how much does 'racing' dominate their orv community communication efforts, etc., etc.).

If this same question was posed to a sledder or cyclist?....I can imagine these older enthusiasts could spit out 5 names and a laundry list of issues pertaining to every aspect of their sport.(while looking at the light fourwheeled enthusiast as if to say..."who are you guys.....<u>really</u>???) [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]

 

Thought you all might be interested in this article from my local newspaper. I realize some of you may not be from Southern California, but obviously these issues effect us all as riders.




Worries grow over ATV safety

RULES: The federal government considers more regulation as deaths and injuries increase.

12:14 AM PST on Monday, October 31, 2005

By SONJA BJELLAND / The Press-Enterprise
Public comment

Anyone may send a comment to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission as it revises quad-runner safety rules and regulations.

By e-mail: cpsc-os@cpsc.gov

By mail: Send five copies to the Office of the Secretary, Consumer Product Safety Commission, Washington, D.C., 20207-0001

By fax: (301) 504-0127




The federal government wants to hear from the public as it develops new safety regulations for four-wheelers.

In the past year, at least seven people have died in four-wheeler collisions in Riverside and San Bernardino counties and six more have suffered major injuries. California leads the nation in all-terrain vehicle use and deaths, according to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

Those interested have until Dec. 7 to tell the commission their opinions and experiences with ATVs. Vicki Warren, of Corona, heads a group called Duners and plans to file formal recommendations. All sports have injuries, she said, and with so many new people, it will take a while for everyone to be trained. It is difficult and sometimes costly to receive proper training, she said.

In California, certain training is required and ATV buyers have to submit a form declaring they know the laws -- including helmet use, avoiding alcohol and not having passengers.

The laws apply to riding on public lands. Many of the deaths of Inland Empire residents in the past five years occurred on private property because Riverside County has no public riding areas. Many occurred when ATVs collided with vehicles on roadways where they are not allowed.

"You can't regulate it, so you just have to educate these people," Warren said.

Nationwide, 31 percent of the deaths occur among children under 16. The other dominant group is adult males.

"I don't know that they need to add any (laws)," said Larry Jacklin, Corona Yamaha sales manager. "I think the main thing is parents don't follow them."

The undertaking comes because the CPSC is concerned by the increasing numbers of deaths and injuries from riding quads, said Scott Wolfson, agency spokesman. According to the commission, nationwide, ATV-related injuries requiring emergency-room visits rose from 52,800 in 1997 to 110,100 in 2001, a 109 percent increase.

The number of estimated driving hours rose 50 percent in the same period. In 1988, the commission banned manufacturer sales of three-wheeled ATVs because they could not make them safe enough.

Nonetheless, two teenagers have died in three-wheeler accidents in the High Desert in the past two years.

This is the most comprehensive review of ATV issues in the commission's history, Wolfson said. The agency will take into account everything from what type of training buyers receive to new safety ideas. Officials will also review current rules and regulations.

"We want to do our part to reduce deaths and injuries and make sure parents and riders are as educated as they can be about safe riding practices," Wolfson said.

Warren believes training will change the trend. Commission data shows educated riders are less likely to be injured but many riders do not take advantage of free training.

"Whenever you have such a growth burst you're going to have a learning curve," she said.

Her group has a certified instructor so members can attend those classes instead of having to schedule them with the ATV Safety Institute.

Warren hopes more groups similar to hers will begin offering classes. Companies such as Yamaha offer free classes for buyers. Jacklin estimated about 30 percent of customers sign up but he does not know how many attend.

People who buy used ATVs do not always have that benefit so Warren would like more options for that market.

"If you put a child in a pool and don't teach them to swim, they're going to drown," she said.

Warren would also like to see more data on what specifically is causing the injuries and deaths to know if the commission should focus on proper helmet sizing, driving technique or other issues.

Another idea the commission may consider is developing a new type of ATV for teenagers who may be too big for youth-sized ATVs but are unprepared for vehicles as large and fast as the adult models.

Corona Yamaha's Jacklin said they offer an ATV for 12-year-olds, but some kids that age are larger than the quad is designed for.

Malcolm Smith Motorsports Team Leader Kris Kast has lost customers by not selling an adult four-runner for use by a youth. Kast notes that the broad scale that determines which quad is appropriate for what age group causes problems for experienced drivers and larger children.

For example, Kast cannot sell an ATV for use by a 15-year-old that has an engine with more than 90cc of power.

Dirt bikes do not require such strict requirements because they are easier to handle with two wheels, he said. Children running into rough terrain may not have the strength to hold the handles and avoid flipping in a quad. Much of the age requirement legislation grew out of lawsuits more than 10 years ago, Kast said.

Because of the skill level and increasing size of youths, Kast recommends changing the age guidelines to more specific divisions. He would also like to require sales people to educate parents about age requirements. Kast said that the initial thrill of ATV riding wears off for youths who want a more challenging ride. But the age requirements of the vehicles don't always meet their needs.

"A kid that doesn't know what he's doing is going to have a blast but someone who's skilled is not," Kast said.

 

I like what they are saying and doing... I agree that educating the public is the key.. however people still refuse to learn or obey. Another problem I feel is that although the major brand dealers are volunteering to follow the CPSC guidelines of age versus engine size, you can go to just about any street corner, vacant lot, Pep Boys etc and find people selling cheap ATV's to anyone with enough green stuff in their hands. Those people are not concerned about your kid's safety... they just want the quick buck. No mention of training, no mention of being realistic on what size is appropriate for the age of the child etc. In short, no mention of the dangers that these things represent... Uneducated and un-knowing parents are buying what they think are safe toys for their children.. and they are NOT TOYS.

With the mail order madness we see, there is no policing it either.... As a result, we all suffer from the bad press when a kid gets hurt or killed..

I like the part about having to sign something that says yeah we know and understand.... it is a start.

Lastly, for those that think that small engines equal no fun.. that is garbage. I have a blast putting my 260 pound butt (I lost some weight) on my son's raptor 80. It sure beats walking and watching your buddies have a blast. Where does it say in the rulebook of life that we owe our kids the fastest anything, or a machine that has the ability to jump the highest???? I must have missed that part... I did read the section on responsible parenting that said I should strive to get my child through the formative years and into adulthood with the least amount of pain and suffering. Even highlighted that section.... I just hope others are afforded the same and do not succomb to the whining of little ones who just got beat by little Johnny down the street.

IT ISN"T ABOUT SPEED FOLKS!!!! IT IS ABOUT HAVING FUN WITH YOUR CHILDREN, and making damn sure they are there to grow into good citizens and adults...

 

Here's a quote from AtvNation's forum putting the entire issue in perspective:

"....The CPSC can regulate the sale and manufacture of ATVs, but . . . can't do anything about the USE of ATVs . . .

No mechanism exists for the CPSC to enforce helmet wear, "underage" riders on "adult" quads, etc.

CPSC's influence ends at the point of sale.

Regardless, CPSC can "ban" the sale and manufacture of what CPSC determines are "unsafe" products; three-wheelers were eleiminated from new manufacture and sale by Consent Decree between CPSC and the ATV industry...."

With this 'attitude' (if you want to call it) in hand...our atv non-profit association 'leadership'....continually spend decades convincing anyone (who will send in an annual due) that the 'real' hot-button issues originate from people who can't do a darn thing to influence individual local behavior in the first place (the CPSC)...not the very people who might cut off their membership dues (these leader's incomes) if they actually ever stand up for anything resembling what would wholesale change or be best for the entire off-road sport as a whole.(have you ever heard anyone but 'myself ' question why the AMA or ATVA doesn't just plain shame these safety ignorant folks at Windrock, or anyplace else, into acting like the legacy driven role models they should?).

You've got to stand up and act like a man to solve <u>any</u> of this....and many of these guys are doing just fine without having to strap a set on when the time comes to so much as 'resemble' anything approaching one.
As I've always said....you damn well better divide this community before you ever so much as even attempt to start uniting it...as there are many out here willing to fight hard as role models for the next generation...yet only if those lessons teach there is absloutely no reason to 'compromise' with those who don't <u>deserve</u> said courtesy in the first place.
In other words, if I have to spend my entire life trying to find someone with the stones to actually loudly and publicly denounce/work hard to stop what's going on at Windrock....why would I be 'proud' to be associated with the 'rest' of you goofs who don't have the guts to stand up like a man regarding even the simplest of these issues in the first place?

Yeah, I know, these kids today aren't used to being talked to like that.....but my guess is that if you're reading this and over 'forty'...somebody has shown you the true value of "p.c" togetherness and how far it'll take you...[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]