[quote]
Originally posted by: twentycharacters
I can guarantee you that any ATV riding facility with the name Honda (or any other deep-pocket name) would be quickly immersed in lawsuits claiming civil damages, waiver or no waiver, by every contingency ambulance chaser licensed to practice law in that state. The nuisance factor cost of just responding to those claims would skew a business plan to a point where use fees would be so high as to be prohibitive. On public land, you can't sue a government entity without their consent unless there's reasonable cause for proving negligence. All a public entity has to state in the use permission is stay on the trails or you've broken the law, which precludes civil claims.

It's all about money, nothing else. Prove to affected public entity bureaucracies that you can offer public ATV riding facilities that will at the very least be a cost break-even scenario including reserves they can use for other purposes, get their blessing, present it to the key politicians their business leaders who will gain revenue from such an endeavor and you'll succeed. Otherwise, nothing will happen.

 

I neglected to mention the the second and below tiers of ATV industry, the aftermarket, getting into furnishing or sponsoring ATV riding facilities. As a businessman, I can say that successfully operating one's own core business is a challenge encompassing every spare moment of every day. I'm not aware of any large private businesses servicing the ATV aftermarket, most are small operations and in many cases offshoots from the 2-wheeler industry.

If there are other business people out there, they also understand the immensity of putting together a ATV riding park project. The first obstacle is capital. One would need a year's worth of capital just to pay expenses for the principle heading the project, at least two support people, legal counsel for land purchase/lease/waivers, insurance requirement reviews, licensing, buying/leasing the land and developing operating P&Ps. In any area adjoining populations high enough to sustain such an endeavor, I'd estimate that at $300k minimum without the land. How many acres? I'd think at least 200 minimum, at $2k an acre, or another $400k. How many aftermarket suppliers churning out bumpers, exhaust pipes, etc. can put that amount of money up-front with no revenue for probably 18-months? While there are undoubtedly some personally wealthy individuals in the aftermarket crowd, few investors in these uncertain economic times are prepared to risk that amount of capital on what's basically a low-return endeavor.

I feel public land with the ability of criminal statute regulation and a self-supporting fee system is the answer to providing ATV riding areas. You play, you pay.

 

once again, georged, nice post, well written and well versed. However i feel you are little negative and simply dont have an optimistic outlook and dont buy into a "hunker down" mentality to get things done no matter what approach.

But are you an attorney? One of my best friends is...You may have some that try to sue, but if they signed a consent form to ride on the porperty, there is little hope of extracting any winnings from the "deep pocketed," sponsors of the riding parks. Its an idea that can work if planned out legally. They dont have to put up a big sign that says HONDA on the park. They could spin off another corp to do this or they can write grants for someone else to do this. THere are many ways to do this...THink outside of the box a litttle. I am also in favor of public land and riding areas but the mix around here is about 50/50. WAIVERS are what you sign if you wan to ride and the private, corporations that own the other places that are much better to ride on than the state/public systems.

The upfront costs on getting the land will be easily reaped with normal riders. Charge $20/day per bike.
The dunes overhere to my conservative calculation is raking in about $150-200K per year. Not bad. Pays for the land in 2 years. After that, its chasflow to put in their pockets and improve the park. You have a couple of these parks in each state and you are reaping it. But hey if you dont beleive it can happen, i guess it wont. You can disagree, i know its possible and you dont think so. It happens in other sports, why cant it happen to ours?

Everybody wins if there are places to ride. You win, I win, the atv manufacturers win, the aftermarket wins....But if there are no places to ride, then no bikes will be sold, no $$$$, no aftermarket, not a dam thing. It all hinges on places to ride and it can be done by corparations (it is already to some scale with private owners- but it needs to be grander).

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

 

No, I spent my career in corporate finance on the treasury side with responsibility for managing a large equipment leasing portfolio and worked hand in hand with lawyers, in-house and outside counsel. I can tell you endless stories about reserves set up for nuisance lawsuits. The problem being one has to respond and determine if a quick settlement makes sense to avoid legal expenses in pursuing dismissal. Juries do not favor businesses. After retiring from that, I was a consultant for several years and owned interests in smaller businesses, operating some, generally turnaround circumstances. I'm now an investor.

When it comes to business plan formulation, I prefer the three 'what if' scenarios; probable, worst case and best case. The potential liability issue with ATVs (waver or no waiver, lawyers would be all over a serious injury or death) would dissuade me from investing in such a venture on a worst case basis, but that's not to say it wouldn't be feasible to one who accepts those risks. It's pretty easy to make money at anything well-planned, properly capitalized with an established market, I've just reached a point in life where financial risk doesn't make much sense.

I was also a banker for about five years in mid-career, larger transactions, and I've seen just about every business proposal there is looking for investment capital. My cynical eye would pass on anything to do with unregulated, motorized competition without even looking at the numbers. Again, that's just my experience and wouldn't apply to someone or a group with private financing prepared to take that type of risk. We're just not talking big enough revenue numbers and operating margins to attract the people who do these things on a large scale using franchise methodology.

I still think public land properly regulated and operated offers the best potential for expanded ATV riding and it would take only a few successes to snowball on a national basis, so we'll agree to disagree on this issue.

 

I appreciate your posts and risk scenerios, and I do not totally discount your professional experience. And we still peacefully disagree for the most part. However, the big profits and operating margins will not necessarily come from the land itself (even though it will be reasonably nice, and if i had a park i know i would make a TON of $$$$ around here).

No! it will continue to be the flourishment of the sales of the bikes; after all, that is what the OEMS are after- sales, profit, etc. But i re-iterate, without places to ride, sales will slip, they lose money and everyone loses, and the sport is over. The investment in land by the oems (either direct, or indirect, by grants, whatever) is just a security deposit on their future sales and helps the future of our sport, which i think we can agree that we both love.

I'm all for public access areas, free or non free, but they usually are not as good as the privately owned ones. The lawlessness of the vigilante ATV rider needs to be dealt with rather than the closing down of places to ride. They need to have their driver's license suspended/revoked and treat it with stiff penalties and impound the machine. In some cases this may not seem fair, but it will help weed out our idiot atvers. Respect is another key to the Revolution. Without the respect, we get nothing from anyone and are looked at like gangsters.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: twentycharacters
From what I read, hear and see, ATV image is the driving force behind sales and public/private non-participant rejection. Until that's remedied at the public/private levels, expansion of riding areas will be mostly dependent on private enterprise. The only way to remedy it is, as you point out, with force in the form of legislation allowing draconian measures for control purposes. If I was an advocate of expanding ATV riding areas, that's where I'd start. Without that piece in place public areas will dry up long before private enterprise can replace them. Get the public situation standardized for normal riders and pay for riding private places where yahoos can attempt whatever they want would boom. At a healthy price which would provide margins attracting expansion capital.

 

bingo. i totally agree with that.

 

To inject a bit more of a positive note...

I live about three hours from the Hatfield-McCoy trails, which is one of the rare success stories.

It started with local enthusiasts who had contacts in the coal mining industry. What keeps it going today, and thriving, is the small businesses that have sprung up supporting the trails, bringing in tax dollars, and keeping people in an otherwise impoverished area gainfully employed and off of the welfare rolls. So much so, that more trails have begun to appear in E. Kentucky for exactly the same reason - to cash in and create employment in an area that is desperately short on jobs. It's not a perfect situation, but trail rangers and cooperative riders seem to be keeping it clean and safe enough to encourage expansion.

Now, if they would just carry this to the logical conclusion - a quad trail that runs the length of the Appalachian Trail, which I believe is around 800 miles. Wouldn't that just be a blast - start in Pennsylvania, and ride to Georgia?

Granted, the northwest doesn't have quite the poverty that much of Appalachia has, but study what's going on there. It's one of the few success stories in an otherwise decaying situation. It can be done.

 

Twenty, I understand your proposal is overly simplified, and does not represent the menutia of what it would take to create such an undertaking, but the point is well taken. Two thing would need to happen to make it work. First, like it or not, the proposed park systems would take legislative buy in. Without some stand up people in the political sector willing to become a lightning rod for the issues.. you are doomed to fail... Secondly, we are in dire need of a change in how the ATV industry, and the persons who ride them are perceived. This means that no longer can we tolerate the wheelies up and down the roads, or the riding on private lands without permission etc. Unless we solve those two, it can't move forward.

In some parts of the country, land owners are trying to pull this off, only to be shot down by local ordinances or complaints of loud noise, dust etc. The loud noise issue can be dealt with quite easily.. DON"T USE LOUD PIPES.. but the other issues will take a bit more work to solve....

The bottom line is, we are positioned to make the biggest improvement in the outcome of our sport. If you take what we were arguing about 2 years ago and look at where we are today, I think the argument and way we are perceived is changing in a positive way. All you have to look at is the number of states with solid programs when none existed before to see that. Funding sources are being developed.. but the real challenge is in figuring out how to influence where that money is spent....

 

Well, Abramoff is definitely not a possibility.