The bottom line is that the left does not believe that the terrorists are a real threat to our country. They somehow think we'd be OK if we didn't go into Afghanistan or Iraq. They somehow believe that nothing bad will happen if we just give in to their wishes.

If we give in, they will take more. The left believes that if we give a little, the terrorists will somehow become nice people that will make us cookies and we can live together in peace. It's eutopian fantacism at its finest. I can just see them sitting around, smoking pot, picking flowers and thinking that they can LOVE terrorists into submission. Somebody get me a barf bag!

They don't understand that these scumbags would LOVE for you to invite them over for tea, so they can put a bullet in your infidel head and move on to the next gutless individual that believes they can win terrorist hearts and minds with love and friendship. They just don't get it. Terrorists need to be exterminated. Period.

What is worse is that the people that are giving these scumbags refuge, claim to be peace loving people. The terrorists are giving ALL muslims a bad name and ALL of the muslims need to band together and stop these fanatics before their entire religion is viewed as the religion of terrorists. The world won't put up with that. It never has. fanatical groups in all of history have always been wiped out.

I find one thing the most ironic. The terrorists are attempting to FORCE their views on to the rest of the world. They want earth to be one big Islamic state. What they don't seem to comprehend is that by their violent actions, they are destroying Islam. It is exactly the opposite of what they want, and they're too ignorant to see it.

Sorry, that was really off the main topic.

 

No your not, so let me educate you just a little. A fatwa (A free hall pass) was issued by a muslim imam (religious leader) to Al Qaeda members which allowed them to deviate from traditional muslim customs and practices while on operational missions. Believe it or not this country was looking for teroristist types before 9/11, but it had not dawned on anyone, because it had not been done, that operational members of a cell would so widely and obviously deviate from their religious customs. Another words they were watching mosques and the like not the strip clubs. That can be up for another debate if they should have know about the fatwa's or not, but I am realtively sure you didn't know any of the above to begin with.

Regarding attribution on my post. The gentleman who wrote that is no one of political or public significance, his identity is of no consequence. If you notice and I mention once again, I corrected that the post had often been misatributed to a retired general when it was actually written by a retired attorney. Misatribution of material occurs by people with motives that are less than pure and no matter what I put before or after the post someone who was planning on using it for such motives would leave out what they desired.

If you doubt any of what I have posted do a little research from public sources on Islam (i.e. structure and traditions) and on espionage, because most of the terrorists tactics originate (i.e. counter-surviellance, hiding in plain sight and covert communication) from the tried and true art of spying which has occured since the begining of time.

I have addressed your questions twice now, I will not a third time. You obviously have not bothered to read my entire comments on the first occasion, and you did not have to courtesy to respond to the question I posed to you. If you want to challenge some one on something they post and you quote it all then address it all, If you want to address one item then post only that item.

My apoligies 440, I have no patience for people with preconieved ideas and especially when they pose questions and do not have the courtesy to respond in a like manner when a question is posed to them.

 

First of all a fatwa is not a "free hall pass" as you say. It's is a religious ruling. But, here's the thing you have to realise, fatwa's are not binding. And there can be differing interpretations of rules, laws, etc. and you would end up with different fatwas. The best way to describe a fatwa is if you were to take a law to 10 different lawyers and ask them to interpret it. They could give you an opinion, but it doesn't make correct. There is no hierarchy in the Islamic faith, like there is in most, especially Western (Christian sects, etc.) religions.

There's a fundamental problem with that. You need to back up what you say. Who knows who wrote that. People need to be recognised for their work. If he's just some Joe Schmoe off the street, why should I care what he wrote? Properly attributed, I could research and see what I find out. Maybe he was a very well respected attorney, or maybe he was a sleezeball. No way to know, without proper attribution.

In an acedemic setting, it would care zero weight. Of course I'm sure you'll counter that this isn't an acedemic setting and it doesn't matter. It does. It's only proper.

I looked up "fatwa" and it wasn't exactly as you described it. Here's where I got my information: What is a "Fatwa"? I presume one could interpret any particular fatwa as you described it, but a "free hall pass" is NOT what it is. It is only a religious opinion.

Exactly what did I not respond to?

The only question that you posted in the original message I responded to was:

It's quite obvious they are a terrorist. However, they are plainly not Muslim, in the true meaning of the faith. It doesn't really matter what you call them.

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Capitalism at its finest (sarcasm)

 

I think I agree with what your getting at as many people are very confused on the religious effects or causes involved here, but honestly you cant totally blame them as we have heard little more than propaganda from the press, and no less than brainwashing from our legislators and president in order to gain support for which ever side they may be rallying for.

I actually believe that our govt prefers us to be ignorant to what the muslim religion and islam are about so that they can use it to their advantage in any way they should chose. It also helps to create a complete situation where pretty much everyone has only one thought to what a terrorist is (branding them all the same, and as baby and women killers without a cause etc) and is never shown anything to do with the "big picture" that would cause any understanding at all.

I am not wanting to look sympathetic, but it is what it is.

 

In all fairness there are several stero types used in this unknown persons letter, and there are also several points made that I cant agree with and some maybe just a little. Still there is a sampling of the legitimate concerns and even thoughts of many americans (so be it if less knowledgable as well) and I honestly believe that all the thoughts that I didnt agree with are most likely the ones that were formed due to lack of knowledge on the subject being discussed.

No one is perfect, and that really includes all of us too (just a refresher lol) but when you allow fear, poor information, and the thoughts of others you hear lead your thinking your deffinately in for trouble.

There have been several good points made that I want to respond to as to keep it less confusing I am going to quote each one, and respond below. This also seems to keep me from wandering off subject as well.

 

Have to agree with those listed, and should include an attack on the USS Liberty naval ship June 8 1967 by Israel, or are there those who consider an attack by an allies military different than one from an unknown without a military? More info USS Liberty

True we can not fault one of the two parties (remember how I clump them together for the most part anyhow), but every other reason listed I completely disagree with. If you think these people would pass on all the much closer people of succes and freedom that would save them several thousands of miles in travel (Europeans, Asians, and even the wealthy in the ME) just to pick NY out of their hat you have to be crazy. I mean if success or position was a motovation there were thousands of potential points to hit before getting to NY, and its blantantly obvious that these were not the motivation for what has happened.

Wow is this a loaded one!

First I have to ask if he was referring to the tactics used by many govt leaders all around the world to create a situation where all its citizens are of a similar thinking and loyalty (like what is being done with this whole "politically correct BS) and killing off any not following suit like in **** Germany, or was it to explain what he believed would be done in any Muslim country if left alone to run themselves etc. Seriously I think its a valid question.

Also look at those numbers and ask yourself why so few have heard of the crimes against Christians?

Kind of short sighted. I am sure we are at war with any terrorist that are a threat to us (remember timmy mcveigh) from whereever they may come. With the war in Iraq its obvious that were also in a war with whom ever we chose for what ever reason we can muster up. I dont want to get into the whole if we should be in Iraq or not, because were pretty much there already, and its looking like it will be for a while, but I think we all can agree that this guys opinion that we are there because they are "Muslim Terrorists" is way out there, and not the case.

I do have to agree with the last sentence though.

Is this man delusional? This claim that all countries are being taken over by Muslims in general is insane, and if he had a gripe with Jews or Christians people would label him a racist and a madman.

Now I also dont agree with making deals with terrorists, but our govt had done just that many years before 9/11, and maybe if we were not supporting both sides of the various Muslim/Jewish concerns in that region for so long we wouldnt have to hide the real reasons these extremeists have it in for us, and would actually be able to find a way (a peacefull one too) to put an end to the attacks on the US and still maintain some control of the region (the main idea in the first place).

Now we take a hypothetical and turn up the heat to make comparisons to the unbelievable imprisonment of thousands of Asian Americans during the WW. With the inteligence avail today combined with the technology on hand at most every mass transit from trains to planes and beyond there is no reason that anyone not matter their appearance can not be checked within seconds without having to endure the embarassment of a complete body search etc unless other evidence is seen thru the non invasive methods.

I think its also clear that the majority of americans realize that we can increase security without having our citizens give up their constitutional rights, and those typically suspected are not american citizens in the first place, and our civil liberties have nothing to do with this. OK you have seen my rant on this before so I will stop there lol.

Touched on the civil liberties above, and if I wasnt clear earlier we need to eliminate the whole idea of "political correctness" regardless of the war on terror as it offers no positive, and only negatives.

Now for the rest of his thought on the media, prisoners, treatment, and both parties putting enough spin on it all to make a bowling ball jump six lanes.

First we can not assume that all prisoners were doing the things he says, and this is obviously just more propaganda, but we also have to deal with detaining these POWs in a way that does not pose a threat to the US in any way, but also without snubbing our nose as a country at the geneva convention either.

Are all the things that the press has reported on any type of violation, well I cant say I believe they are, but like most of you I was not and am not there in person. Should these prisoners be treated like royal guests of the white house, I think not.

Lets agree that with the situation at hand it wouldnt be impossible that there is some rough handling, but this is different than torture, or some of the other claims by the dems.

Still this guys thoughts seem to be some kind of spin to make it appear that everything is perfect and acceptable, and I doubt he has any way to know that any more than you or I, and as much as I see the spin the Dems are putting on this as insulting I dont think they really give rats **** either, and are just prepping for the next big election.

This I agree with as you can not win a war with kindness, but after the last battle there needs to some plan of substance to deal with all those loyal to their country that we have been referring to as insurgents, and in a way that allows a free and prosperous future for all concerned, and if not better be getting ready for the next one that will inevitably be coming.

************

This guy gets into a lot of different things beyond these, but since he never really touches on why there were attacks on the US on 9/11 and what are the real reasons we brought the war on terror from afganistan into Iraq in the first place (no its not all about oil either, and yes I didnt believe this at one point either), and until people pushing us to give up our rights, hate, accept all the spins thrown at us, and just back them 110% they really need to provide more of the truth and less of what they think we want to hear.

I dont want it to look like my opinions are in any way "bush bashing" because they are not, and even though I have a fear of the other party having majority power or the pres office in a time like this and fully understand they would not be fully disclosing the truth (most likely less than what we have now) I still know that I would be more supportive if there was less BS being thrown at us all the time, and if we were knowing that there were several factors leading us into war, and as a combination it was the right thing to do.

Maybe I just despise all this spin we are seeing from both sides, and even though I oppose some of the pres's plans I still support his efforts (damn I wish I worked for a gov contractor right now lol) and know that there is much more happening than what we know, and only ask if he could tough it out and bring us to a victorious ending without trying to water down the very rights our service men and women are fighting for.

 

Well said, and I agree completely

 

One last thought for tonight (I promise lol)

What the he!! is a terrorist in the first place? I pose the question again because I think many are just grouping any enemy that wishes you harm is a terrorist.

Is it just a small group that has no large weapons and doesnt attack in a tank group?

Are they just a group within many countries without any sizable army or navy etc?

Are they as one older palestinian man told me long ago just a crazy bunch without any true country or military might that is forced to take to unusual tactics?

I mean like if any of these factions obtained a dozen Soviet Mig's would they actually use them for attacks, or would they just sell them for additional capital for other projects?

I know this discussion is swaying more towards the war, and terrorists in general, and thats fine, but also lets remember that the intial issues were our ability to remain free and hold onto our civil rights etc while winning this war.

GN

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: 440EX026
"...What the he!! is a terrorist in the first place? I pose the question again because I think many are just grouping any enemy that "wishes you harm" is a terrorist....Are they as one older palestinian man told me long ago just a crazy bunch without any true country or military might that is **forced** to take to unusual tactics?..."

I've held back for long enough....

#1....I've yet to witness an enemy of this country I call home...or a terrorist that is one...where these two descriptive terms didn't <u>fit</u> or apply damn well mutually....

and #2...There is not a damn person on this planet...**forcing** these murderers to blow up innocent men, women and children on a daily basis...and the United States of America will <u>NOT</u> allow a palestinian or any other person in this world community; describe these acts of terror...as simply being "unusual tactics".

Being from Michigan, we've had our damn fill of government conspiracy kooks and liberal palestinian apologists.
My suggestion?...if you're so damn worried about what the government is doing to protect us during this time of <u>war</u>?...go somewhere else <u>until</u> <u>the</u> <u>damn</u> <u>thing</u> <u>is</u> <u>over</u> (which doesn't look to be any time soon and which bodes well for the rest of us who would be glad to see you go while appreciating what these intelligence gatherers are doing on a 24-hour non-stop and anonymous basis for the rest of us).

Does anybody know where all those people went who said they'd "leave the country" if Bush became president?