Wasn't make any suggestions as to what any individual should do, just posing the question if you want to complain than what are you planning to do about it, because pissin and moaning solves nothing. I would not presume to tell someone else how to stand for what they believe in, that is up to each person as an individual. It was not directed at you 440 I know you write letters and voice your concerns elsewhere (I believe you said you were uniformed service as well at one point in your life). I am just tired of people reading articles from some egghead or newspaper, posting it and taking it as fact or expecting others too. Having been invovled with the government as long as I have, I know that most agencies don't respond to the ignorant rantings of the press unless it direclty affects some politicians comfort zone (re-election campaign) and they make a phone call. So just because it is not disputed in every single case does not make it a fact. Some of the folks posting on here are fairly young I am assuming from their writtings and the format for the forums here, perhaps incorrectly, but are they applying for positions in government agencies and taking less money to try and make a difference or contribute? Many and I mean many uniformed and civilian governement employees could live much more comfortable in the private sector, but choose to forego the money and serve their country in whatever capacity they are able (I'm sure anyone who has served the government who reads this can back me up on that). In case you can't tell I am one of those in favor of manditory service for the younger generations, not necessarily uniformed. Who knows they may like it. If not they can go on to those high paying private sector jobs with a knowledge of what some give up to serve this country and them on a daily basis. This is not any bitterness on my part for the choice I have made, I wouldn't change a thing I have done.

Like I said, my two cents. My main point is don't take all this garbage in the press as fact. I've yet to read an article regarding anything that I have been invloved in, over the last 15 years, that was 100% factually correct and that didn't have an agenda in the things it either added to the facts or omitted.

 

We agree on something. And thats my point as well. The right or conservative side seems to be able to dominate the news and editorials, and im trying to show theres another side to the official version.

I also have a question, and you can answer or not, Do you have a problem with the administration spying on americans, without any oversight, and in violation of the laws? Do you see it as a violation at all? Would you have a problem with it, if hillery got elected, and decided she had a list of americans she wanted spied on?

 

imesinga - You are echoing my sentiments. Way too many people complain about all the bad things that they have read that are supposed to be happening and they never look to see if there is an agenda behind the unsubstantiated claims they read.

I hope some of you watched the address tonite. I watched 95% of the Democrats sit on their hands when Bush asked to extend the Patriot Act. I saw Hillary shake her head in disgust after GWB explained why he had the authority and legal approval to get the NSA to listen in to INTERNATIONAL communications to/from known terrorists or al quifa members. Again, the dems just sat there. Apparently, they do not wish to infringe on the "rights" of terrorists. Don't those civilians have a right to be safe? Nobody can put the rights of criminals above the rights of victims. Although the ACLU would see it the other way around.

I hope everyone realizes who is protecting this country as well as who is standing up against rogue nations and power hungry dictators. I hope you can see who believes in our servicemen and women and what they are fighting for. I see people like Kerry and Hillary doing nothing more than playing to the radical socialist left that has become the loudest voice of their party. THAT is not the majority of Americans. That is not the kind of country that I want my children to inheret.

On a better note, spending is down, revenues are up, economy is strong, we're winning in Iraq. Bush is calling for a bipartisan commitee to solve the social security problem.

Get your legislators to pass the Line Item Veto!!!! That will cut the pork REALLY fast!

 

If you are refering to the NSA, which I assume you are. Their intelligence gathering consists of communications which either originate or terminate outside the territorial US. Fair game for interception, has been since the begining of the telecommunication laws. You calling someone outside the US that your worried about? Telephonic communications interception within US borders are regualted by the courts and that's not what issue the press is addressing, although most reports tend to characterize the interception as origination and termination within the US, guess what, not the case. If you think the NSA is the only government looking to listen in on calls that are sent through satellites, you need to do some serious research. Just about every country on this plant that has an intelligence service, "lifts" calls off the satellite net. Believe me or not that is the case.

I believe it was you that posted the item from the professor at BYU. Are you kidding me? Charges in the WTC killing thousands. You must have a real hatred of Bush or something to even consider that.

 

I may just be one of the ignorant Americans, but I believe the Government is trying to protect us. If they need to listen to my phone conversations, and anyone elses, to save even one American life, then so be it. If you think the NSA and FBI and CIA haven't been "spying" on Americans since they were formed, you have lost your mind. Now, it's not just consiracy theorists that are complaining about it, now all Americans know about it. I voted for George Bush and am still proud to admit it. Yeah, he can be goofy sometimes, but that's one of the things I like about him. He is real, not some fake two faced, blah blah blah like John Kerry. If Kerry had been elected, we would all be learning arabic by now. So, as long as "W" is in charge of the people who claim to be keeping us safe from foriegn attacks, have at it. God Bless George Bush.

 

Ok, now I gotta ask, where are you getting your information. Apparently, neither you or anyone you know has ever been attacked by a Meth user for a few bucks for his/her next party will "tina". If you think drugs are a MORAL issue, you have none. I appologize if this sounds like a personal attack, but my career tells me different. I am a cop. I work in the jail and I am constantly reminded that drugs are not a moral issue.

 

I'm with you on all counts. You gotta be Republican. I am. This has been going on for longer than I have been alive. 30 somethingerish years. and it will continue. The boss man said so.

 

So, do you think that since Stalin, Lenin, and (I will even include) Hitler, were all horrible men who no doubt commited some of the worst acts of men in the modern world, that they didn't at least have some intelligent thoughts? I am a proud member of the NRA and always read their propaga..uh..literature. They say the same kind of stuff. "These dictators said this" and it's supposed to be dangerous. I don't think these guys got to power through murder and killing jews, they had to be placed in power by the people in all instances, and then lost it. Most of the quotes were made early in thier careers. Before power got to thier heads. That is why we have term limits. Prez. GW Bush can't be president after 2008. So, then if we elect another Republican, you can bet HIS views will be slightly different, even if Jeb Bush does win it. I stand by the fact that the Dems cannot get anyone elected for a long while since Al Gore, Kerry, and Clinton (both of them) have completely alienated the general public. Most of us think they are all a bunch of weak people. And someone the public thinks is weak will never be president. I know I am ranting, I don't care. I just hope Wild Bill Clinton keeps supporting the democrapic party so that we don't have to worry about it for a while. I sure hope Mr. Hillary Clinton runs with Kerry as her vice, then I KNOW we will not have to worry about it. Ok, sorry for my retardation and access to a keyboard. In short, God Bless AMERICA, and no one else. Thank you and Good night.

 

I know your earlier post wasnt directed towards me, but the reason I asked the question was that just like you I understand that just complaining wont solve or change much at all.

I guess it also was sort of a loaded question too since we all have a lot to say (some more logical or practical than others lol) but it seems that no one is offering anything on WHAT TO DO.

Also I wasnt sure if you were leaning towards the idea that in order to help or make change etc you were referring to more people joining the miliatary or becoming a govt employee (maybe not a bad idea with the current conditions for jobs in private industry ), and I was thinking that some wouldnt be interested in that, and maybe even consider it becoming part of the problem.

Another thought was that I honestly believe that most all Americans no matter their take on any of this surely believe that those in the various branches of the military are performing a honorable job, and appreciate their sacrifices no matter if they disagree with the war in general. In other words anyone with basic inteligence should be able to seperate those who are doing their job unconditionally from those who are laying things out on the top levels.

It seems that no matter you position in life that there is still that gap of how to get involved with making the changes that one feels are needed, and with the way pretty much everyone in power today has their own agenda that does not put the american people on the top of their list and uses all kinds of tactics and propaganda to achieve their goals (both political parties included!!!) its pretty damn diffilcult to even know who is supporting what in the first place.

 

"Ignorant Americans" Sorry but that just sounds like something that those "arrogant frenchmen" would say [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Seriously you make good points, and I think most of us have to agree that the various goverement agencies need to be able to perform their duties in order to protect our freedoms and keep us safe, but they also need to do this without limiting our freedoms, violating our rights, or breaking the law.

We all need to remember that most all laws were enacted to protect us or something, and even though there have been so many "courtesy" laws made to pander to one certain group etc. we still have to insist that everyone and every agency adhere to the law. I wont get into how the law can be "re written" to allow breaking the law (as part of the patriot act does) but lets try to agree that we need to maintain a certain level of our constitution and its protection of the "people" over anything else.

I am sure I have said it before but without the basic rights contained in the constitution we would simply become a country similar to that our forefathers fled from, and washing them down for any reason is a serious mistake to say the least.

So maybe some would think its a lot to ask, but I honestly do not see why it is so much of an issue for our govt to work within the same laws as we the people do, and why they would not be able to properly protect us without violating our rights!!