This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
#241
02-09-2006, 05:24 PM
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This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
Originally posted by: DSNUT
Black and Red,
You are clearly open minded. You are correct when you say that just because something sells well doesn't make it the best option. Unfortunately we live in a world where we have to make sacrifices. There may have been other options that were better than Windows but were they viable options? Could they meet the volume demand? Could they meet the cost requirements so as not to drive up the cost of computers?
What sacrifices in other areas would we have had to make to take advantage of better security found in a different operating system?
There is no ideal, there is just life. All I meant by that statement was follow what people are doing. Trust in the American people on the large scale. Even a completely free society isn't perfect but it is the best we have. Capitalism vs. Socialism is a valid illustration. In a perfect world where there is no selfishness, socialism would be ideal. Since this is not a perfect place and selfishness is the defining characteristic of our nature, socialism has failed everytime it was tried. Capitalism is the only economic basis that is consistent with complete freedom. It sucks that some get left out because they are less intelligent or have less physical talent or simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The alternative though requires limiting freedom of citizens to keep it "fair".
This thread is about the question of freedom. I don't care if Bush or Kerry or Hillary is in the White House sworn to protect this great land. Under the current circumstances since "911" I want the President to profile, spy and whatever else he has to do to make sure bad guys aren't slipping through the cracks. These guys say we are no safer but they couldn't be more wrong. How many successful terrorist attacks have we had on our shore since "911"?
None!
Where are all the terrorists being engaged?
Iraq and Afghanistan and anywhere else other than here! Pretty smart, huh. Oh and we happened to free about 50 million people from dictatorial control while we were at it. They are democracy's now and they overwhelmingly love us for going the distance. I don't care what these guys say about people not wanting freedom. That is a lie! Freedom is cherished above all things when compared.
If I have to wait longer to get on a plane or I have to make dam.n sure my papers are in order to re-enter the country, no problem. Just keep us safe. If you want to listen in on my phone conversations right now, no problem. I have nothing to hide. When the war is over though, you better back off!
This whole notion is bogus though. Bush is not breaking any laws. He is granted this right by office to do what is necessary to protect this nation. He swore a constitutional oath to that effect. Any law put in place to inhibit the presidents ability to defend this nation is in fact unconstitutional in itself.
The things Bush id doing right now are no different than what any president has been doing since the introduction of the telephone. Clinton authorized more wire taps than Bush has to date without the consent of the judiciary and that wasen't even during a time of war!
I challenge any of you who read this thread to do what it takes to check my information out. Do not look at news organizations or talk radio. Look at the government websites. Look at factcheck.org and see for yourself if the information is accurate.
I put my confidence in people's ability to tell the difference between propaganda and factual information. Sometimes, however, it takes a little work and study to tell the difference.
Educate yourselves on what is really happening. Don't take my word or anyone elses in a place like this that has the luxury of throwing out ideas and statements with no verification or accountability.
Ron
Facts
Black and Red,
You are clearly open minded. You are correct when you say that just because something sells well doesn't make it the best option. Unfortunately we live in a world where we have to make sacrifices. There may have been other options that were better than Windows but were they viable options? Could they meet the volume demand? Could they meet the cost requirements so as not to drive up the cost of computers?
What sacrifices in other areas would we have had to make to take advantage of better security found in a different operating system?
There is no ideal, there is just life. All I meant by that statement was follow what people are doing. Trust in the American people on the large scale. Even a completely free society isn't perfect but it is the best we have. Capitalism vs. Socialism is a valid illustration. In a perfect world where there is no selfishness, socialism would be ideal. Since this is not a perfect place and selfishness is the defining characteristic of our nature, socialism has failed everytime it was tried. Capitalism is the only economic basis that is consistent with complete freedom. It sucks that some get left out because they are less intelligent or have less physical talent or simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. The alternative though requires limiting freedom of citizens to keep it "fair".
This thread is about the question of freedom. I don't care if Bush or Kerry or Hillary is in the White House sworn to protect this great land. Under the current circumstances since "911" I want the President to profile, spy and whatever else he has to do to make sure bad guys aren't slipping through the cracks. These guys say we are no safer but they couldn't be more wrong. How many successful terrorist attacks have we had on our shore since "911"?
None!
Where are all the terrorists being engaged?
Iraq and Afghanistan and anywhere else other than here! Pretty smart, huh. Oh and we happened to free about 50 million people from dictatorial control while we were at it. They are democracy's now and they overwhelmingly love us for going the distance. I don't care what these guys say about people not wanting freedom. That is a lie! Freedom is cherished above all things when compared.
If I have to wait longer to get on a plane or I have to make dam.n sure my papers are in order to re-enter the country, no problem. Just keep us safe. If you want to listen in on my phone conversations right now, no problem. I have nothing to hide. When the war is over though, you better back off!
This whole notion is bogus though. Bush is not breaking any laws. He is granted this right by office to do what is necessary to protect this nation. He swore a constitutional oath to that effect. Any law put in place to inhibit the presidents ability to defend this nation is in fact unconstitutional in itself.
The things Bush id doing right now are no different than what any president has been doing since the introduction of the telephone. Clinton authorized more wire taps than Bush has to date without the consent of the judiciary and that wasen't even during a time of war!
I challenge any of you who read this thread to do what it takes to check my information out. Do not look at news organizations or talk radio. Look at the government websites. Look at factcheck.org and see for yourself if the information is accurate.
I put my confidence in people's ability to tell the difference between propaganda and factual information. Sometimes, however, it takes a little work and study to tell the difference.
Educate yourselves on what is really happening. Don't take my word or anyone elses in a place like this that has the luxury of throwing out ideas and statements with no verification or accountability.
Ron
Facts
You make some good points.
There are some ideas that we need to really think about though.
"This thread is about the question of freedom. "
That was actually the initial reason I started this thread, and I wanted to show that no matter who is behind it all or if its for their own gain or my protection I (and hopefully most of you) am not willing to give up my freedoms in the name of protecting them!!!!!!!
I honestly could not care if this was happening during the current administration, or any of those leading up to, or even following in the future. The real issue here is our freedoms as Americans, and since both parties are obviously mostly concerned with the perpetuating of their party we as Americans are left to fend or fight off any attacks on our freedoms!!
*****
I think we all have to be smart enough to understand that there are many reasons we are at war today (not just what we have been told, right?) , and its really complicated beyond anything we may or may have been lead to believe, but no matter our own individual belief of the purposes etc. and even who is right or wrong in the political arena were in the situation we are, and have to deal with it properly as a nation. That may mean making certain sacrifices of various levels to each and everyone of us, but does it have to cause us as a people to give up the very rights were fighting to protect, and also provide to others in foreign countries (like Iraq?) I honestly cant agree with this.
Most likely there wouldnt be a problem for most Americans to make certain sacrifices willingly, but there is a point where this trust can, could, or is being abused, and that is where things are going wrong.
I have to let you know (everyone) that everytime I see someone make the statement about how they dont mind having their civil rights violated by illegal govt activities I cringe and shake my head in confusion and disbelief. I am not saying that there have been any actions outside the law by the current administration against US citizens because to do that would be complete unfounded opinion, but openly stating that you wouldnt mind if they did is absolutely insane, and I think most would make a quick change of opinion if they or one of their family members were to be caught up in some of the ugly situations that have happened to others.
As an example of one of the ways were being "fooled" with all the references to the changes made for our protection in the name of "terrorism" I offer you all to consider what is being done to help proctect us from terror in PA.
As part of the ongoing additions to providing their passengers added safety from potential terrorist attacks SEPTA (South Eastern Penn Transit Auth) is implementing a new technology that is portable and able to detect the potential of explosives that are inside a bag or suitcase. At first look it sounds like a great thing because there will be less delays when unattended baggage is found around the system, and since it is portable it will allow officials to determine if there is a need to call in any "bomb squad" immediately without closure of the system or interruption of travel when there is no immediate threat.
The problem is that this piece of equipment is able to "sniff out" things beyond those that pose a threat, or are terrorist related.
I have not had time to fully research this further, but the first one that caught my attention is that it also can detect the presence of certain drugs. Now I understand drugs are illegal, but just the idea of this being used for filling any state or citys bank account with the nuisance fines for drug users etc and not for our actually safety from terror concerns would be at min wrong, and at worst the beginning of uncountable lies to get public approval for using large amounts of our tax dollars that would do little more than help big brother keep us in line.
Point is if anyone can not see the potential for continued abuses in the name of terror then you need to really wake up and smell the truth.
#242
02-09-2006, 05:43 PM
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This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
Originally posted by: DSNUT
First, Clinton didn't do illegal wire tapping and neither is Bush. The myth is that it is illegal.
Second, I would have no problem with Hillery doing what Bush is doing because it isn't illegal.
Third, I think feingold is coming to the wrong conclusion based on a false premis.
Originally posted by: hondabuster
Its a myth that clinton did illegal wiretapping...see here Text
DSNUT, so if i understand you correctly, you have no problem if hillery was the pres, and spied on whoever she wanted, and lied about it, and was unchecked by any republicans?
So you think that fiengold is a lier...just like bush and cheney? all politicians are liers, or only the dems?
Its a myth that clinton did illegal wiretapping...see here Text
DSNUT, so if i understand you correctly, you have no problem if hillery was the pres, and spied on whoever she wanted, and lied about it, and was unchecked by any republicans?
So you think that fiengold is a lier...just like bush and cheney? all politicians are liers, or only the dems?
Second, I would have no problem with Hillery doing what Bush is doing because it isn't illegal.
Third, I think feingold is coming to the wrong conclusion based on a false premis.
I know that our leaders including the pres need the proper tools to protect our country and its interests especially in a time of war, and personally I dont have any problem with the proper use of inteligence on known potential threats to them, but there is a fine line being walked, and the potential for abuse is great (even if none have been committed so far) by this or any future administration, and this is why there needs to be proper checks and balances in place, and respected.
It would suprize me if anyone thought that there shouldnt be intel gathering on "known" threats or persons who pose a threat to our safety, but once there is suspicion of, or the potential for using such intel for use against American citizens who are not in any way involved with a group that is a threat as part of that group etc is where so many millions of Americans become concerned.
It may sometimes appear that my opinion may "flip flop" a little (no I am not a Dem lol) but that is because my concerns do not follow any party lines, and even though I do support the Pres, his office, and all congress, and even the senate, or any agency that is part of the war effort I also is am even more concerned with our country, my fellow Americans, and protecting our way of life etc.
Only a closed minded person without the ability to see thru the trees would think this issue is in any way "black & white" and that there is anything to gain by chosing sides based on party prefference or liberal and conservative status or values. Actually this alone is the largest reason I have trouble with how the Dem's are attacking the president, and not actually dealing with the issues or problems at hand, and may very likely have been part of what their complaining about, and only recently lost whatever control they thought they had of it.
Of course this all is only opinion, and we all have to form our own, but we also need to learn what is happening, and not just read it from a long speach from a member of either party with a specific agenda, and please everyone try to remember that since we are the only ones who put ourselves first as a people we have to be ready to defend our freedoms both from abroad, and from within!!
#243
02-09-2006, 06:22 PM
This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
Originally posted by: 440EX026
Interesting that you make refference to the "myth" since as of now there is no proof one way or the other, and with the assumption of innocense etc we really have to give the Pres the benefit of the doubt till the point that hard evidence would prove different if that was ever to happen.
I know that our leaders including the pres need the proper tools to protect our country and its interests especially in a time of war, and personally I dont have any problem with the proper use of inteligence on known potential threats to them, but there is a fine line being walked, and the potential for abuse is great (even if none have been committed so far) by this or any future administration, and this is why there needs to be proper checks and balances in place, and respected.
It would suprize me if anyone thought that there shouldnt be intel gathering on "known" threats or persons who pose a threat to our safety, but once there is suspicion of, or the potential for using such intel for use against American citizens who are not in any way involved with a group that is a threat as part of that group etc is where so many millions of Americans become concerned.
It may sometimes appear that my opinion may "flip flop" a little (no I am not a Dem lol) but that is because my concerns do not follow any party lines, and even though I do support the Pres, his office, and all congress, and even the senate, or any agency that is part of the war effort I also is am even more concerned with our country, my fellow Americans, and protecting our way of life etc.
Only a closed minded person without the ability to see thru the trees would think this issue is in any way "black & white" and that there is anything to gain by chosing sides based on party prefference or liberal and conservative status or values. Actually this alone is the largest reason I have trouble with how the Dem's are attacking the president, and not actually dealing with the issues or problems at hand, and may very likely have been part of what their complaining about, and only recently lost whatever control they thought they had of it.
Of course this all is only opinion, and we all have to form our own, but we also need to learn what is happening, and not just read it from a long speach from a member of either party with a specific agenda, and please everyone try to remember that since we are the only ones who put ourselves first as a people we have to be ready to defend our freedoms both from abroad, and from within!!
Originally posted by: DSNUT
First, Clinton didn't do illegal wire tapping and neither is Bush. The myth is that it is illegal.
Second, I would have no problem with Hillery doing what Bush is doing because it isn't illegal.
Third, I think feingold is coming to the wrong conclusion based on a false premis.
Originally posted by: hondabuster
Its a myth that clinton did illegal wiretapping...see here Text
DSNUT, so if i understand you correctly, you have no problem if hillery was the pres, and spied on whoever she wanted, and lied about it, and was unchecked by any republicans?
So you think that fiengold is a lier...just like bush and cheney? all politicians are liers, or only the dems?
Its a myth that clinton did illegal wiretapping...see here Text
DSNUT, so if i understand you correctly, you have no problem if hillery was the pres, and spied on whoever she wanted, and lied about it, and was unchecked by any republicans?
So you think that fiengold is a lier...just like bush and cheney? all politicians are liers, or only the dems?
Second, I would have no problem with Hillery doing what Bush is doing because it isn't illegal.
Third, I think feingold is coming to the wrong conclusion based on a false premis.
I know that our leaders including the pres need the proper tools to protect our country and its interests especially in a time of war, and personally I dont have any problem with the proper use of inteligence on known potential threats to them, but there is a fine line being walked, and the potential for abuse is great (even if none have been committed so far) by this or any future administration, and this is why there needs to be proper checks and balances in place, and respected.
It would suprize me if anyone thought that there shouldnt be intel gathering on "known" threats or persons who pose a threat to our safety, but once there is suspicion of, or the potential for using such intel for use against American citizens who are not in any way involved with a group that is a threat as part of that group etc is where so many millions of Americans become concerned.
It may sometimes appear that my opinion may "flip flop" a little (no I am not a Dem lol) but that is because my concerns do not follow any party lines, and even though I do support the Pres, his office, and all congress, and even the senate, or any agency that is part of the war effort I also is am even more concerned with our country, my fellow Americans, and protecting our way of life etc.
Only a closed minded person without the ability to see thru the trees would think this issue is in any way "black & white" and that there is anything to gain by chosing sides based on party prefference or liberal and conservative status or values. Actually this alone is the largest reason I have trouble with how the Dem's are attacking the president, and not actually dealing with the issues or problems at hand, and may very likely have been part of what their complaining about, and only recently lost whatever control they thought they had of it.
Of course this all is only opinion, and we all have to form our own, but we also need to learn what is happening, and not just read it from a long speach from a member of either party with a specific agenda, and please everyone try to remember that since we are the only ones who put ourselves first as a people we have to be ready to defend our freedoms both from abroad, and from within!!
As citizens and officials we are inherently innocent until proven guilty. The President is not exempt from this right. If he is spying on me because he wants to get my wife or my DS, he is breaking the law because that would be "unjustified". Until he does something like that, and as long as he keeps this to the people who are suspected to be in league with Al Qaeda, he is not breaking any law.
This whole situation requires trust but verification. It does not require proactive accusation.
#244
02-10-2006, 01:57 AM
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This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
I can buy this. I will caution you as you have cautioned me not to get too carried away with the virtues of shades of gray. There is some gray but not everything has to be gray. To say there is no black and white on this subject is in itself, black and white.
As citizens and officials we are inherently innocent until proven guilty. The President is not exempt from this right. If he is spying on me because he wants to get my wife or my DS, he is breaking the law because that would be "unjustified". Until he does something like that, and as long as he keeps this to the people who are suspected to be in league with Al Qaeda, he is not breaking any law.
This whole situation requires trust but verification. It does not require proactive accusation.
#246
02-10-2006, 12:23 PM
This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
dsnut,If it were such a false premise and untrue...wouldnt you think rove and company would respond and say so? Why arent they challenging what he said?
Heres what former president Carter, had to say
Ex-President Carter: Eavesdropping Illegal
By KATHLEEN HENNESSEY, Associated Press Writer Tue Feb 7, 1:12 AM ET
HENDERSON, Nev. - Former President Jimmy Carter criticized the Bush administration's domestic eavesdropping program Monday and said he believes the president has broken the law.
"Under the Bush administration, there's been a disgraceful and illegal decision — we're not going to the let the judges or the Congress or anyone else know that we're spying on the American people," Carter told reporters. "And no one knows how many innocent Americans have had their privacy violated under this secret act."
The former president also rebuked Attorney General Alberto Gonzales for telling Congress that the spying program is authorized under Article 2 of the Constitution and does not violate the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act passed during Carter's administration. Gonzales made the assertions in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which began investigating the eavesdropping program Monday.
"It's a ridiculous argument, not only bad, it's ridiculous. Obviously, the attorney general who said it's all right to torture prisoners and so forth is going to support the person who put him in office. But he's a very partisan attorney general and there's no doubt that he would say that," Carter said. "I hope that eventually the case will go to the Supreme Court. I have no doubt that when it's over, the Supreme Court will rule that Bush has violated the law."
The former president said he would testify before the Judiciary Committee if asked.
"If my voice is important to point of the intent of the law that was passed when I was president, I know all about that because it was one of the most important decisions I had to make."
Heres what former president Carter, had to say
Ex-President Carter: Eavesdropping Illegal
By KATHLEEN HENNESSEY, Associated Press Writer Tue Feb 7, 1:12 AM ET
HENDERSON, Nev. - Former President Jimmy Carter criticized the Bush administration's domestic eavesdropping program Monday and said he believes the president has broken the law.
"Under the Bush administration, there's been a disgraceful and illegal decision — we're not going to the let the judges or the Congress or anyone else know that we're spying on the American people," Carter told reporters. "And no one knows how many innocent Americans have had their privacy violated under this secret act."
The former president also rebuked Attorney General Alberto Gonzales for telling Congress that the spying program is authorized under Article 2 of the Constitution and does not violate the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act passed during Carter's administration. Gonzales made the assertions in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which began investigating the eavesdropping program Monday.
"It's a ridiculous argument, not only bad, it's ridiculous. Obviously, the attorney general who said it's all right to torture prisoners and so forth is going to support the person who put him in office. But he's a very partisan attorney general and there's no doubt that he would say that," Carter said. "I hope that eventually the case will go to the Supreme Court. I have no doubt that when it's over, the Supreme Court will rule that Bush has violated the law."
The former president said he would testify before the Judiciary Committee if asked.
"If my voice is important to point of the intent of the law that was passed when I was president, I know all about that because it was one of the most important decisions I had to make."
#247
02-10-2006, 12:32 PM
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This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
Originally posted by: imesinga
Who among you even knew a FISA court existed 5 years ago? Just a thought.
Who among you even knew a FISA court existed 5 years ago? Just a thought.
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#248
02-10-2006, 01:03 PM
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This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
Originally posted by: DSNUT
What do you want to see happen in regard to the things we have been discussing that would improve our society?
What do you want to see happen in regard to the things we have been discussing that would improve our society?
Take yesterdays announcement, or whatever you want to call it, about foiling a plot to kamakazee a plane into Library Tower in LA. It appears on the face to be a justification for the NSA activities. But I have yet to figure out HOW.
Too many ex-officials, employees, etc. in this administration are coming out and saying the Admin. keeps getting it wrong.
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#249
02-10-2006, 01:11 PM
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This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
Originally posted by: 440EX026
As an example of one of the ways were being "fooled" with all the references to the changes made for our protection in the name of "terrorism" I offer you all to consider what is being done to help proctect us from terror in PA.
As part of the ongoing additions to providing their passengers added safety from potential terrorist attacks SEPTA (South Eastern Penn Transit Auth) is implementing a new technology that is portable and able to detect the potential of explosives that are inside a bag or suitcase. At first look it sounds like a great thing because there will be less delays when unattended baggage is found around the system, and since it is portable it will allow officials to determine if there is a need to call in any "bomb squad" immediately without closure of the system or interruption of travel when there is no immediate threat.
The problem is that this piece of equipment is able to "sniff out" things beyond those that pose a threat, or are terrorist related.
I have not had time to fully research this further, but the first one that caught my attention is that it also can detect the presence of certain drugs. Now I understand drugs are illegal, but just the idea of this being used for filling any state or citys bank account with the nuisance fines for drug users etc and not for our actually safety from terror concerns would be at min wrong, and at worst the beginning of uncountable lies to get public approval for using large amounts of our tax dollars that would do little more than help big brother keep us in line.
Point is if anyone can not see the potential for continued abuses in the name of terror then you need to really wake up and smell the truth.
As an example of one of the ways were being "fooled" with all the references to the changes made for our protection in the name of "terrorism" I offer you all to consider what is being done to help proctect us from terror in PA.
As part of the ongoing additions to providing their passengers added safety from potential terrorist attacks SEPTA (South Eastern Penn Transit Auth) is implementing a new technology that is portable and able to detect the potential of explosives that are inside a bag or suitcase. At first look it sounds like a great thing because there will be less delays when unattended baggage is found around the system, and since it is portable it will allow officials to determine if there is a need to call in any "bomb squad" immediately without closure of the system or interruption of travel when there is no immediate threat.
The problem is that this piece of equipment is able to "sniff out" things beyond those that pose a threat, or are terrorist related.
I have not had time to fully research this further, but the first one that caught my attention is that it also can detect the presence of certain drugs. Now I understand drugs are illegal, but just the idea of this being used for filling any state or citys bank account with the nuisance fines for drug users etc and not for our actually safety from terror concerns would be at min wrong, and at worst the beginning of uncountable lies to get public approval for using large amounts of our tax dollars that would do little more than help big brother keep us in line.
Point is if anyone can not see the potential for continued abuses in the name of terror then you need to really wake up and smell the truth.
Now, if the sniffer started going off when grandma walked by with her nitro pills, then it's a bit much and become a nuisance.
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#250
02-10-2006, 01:24 PM
This is scary- Pentagon spying on Americans
Originally posted by: hondabuster
dsnut,If it were such a false premise and untrue...wouldnt you think rove and company would respond and say so? Why arent they challenging what he said?
Heres what former president Carter, had to say
Ex-President Carter: Eavesdropping Illegal
By KATHLEEN HENNESSEY, Associated Press Writer Tue Feb 7, 1:12 AM ET
HENDERSON, Nev. - Former President Jimmy Carter criticized the Bush administration's domestic eavesdropping program Monday and said he believes the president has broken the law.
"Under the Bush administration, there's been a disgraceful and illegal decision — we're not going to the let the judges or the Congress or anyone else know that we're spying on the American people," Carter told reporters. "And no one knows how many innocent Americans have had their privacy violated under this secret act."
The former president also rebuked Attorney General Alberto Gonzales for telling Congress that the spying program is authorized under Article 2 of the Constitution and does not violate the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act passed during Carter's administration. Gonzales made the assertions in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which began investigating the eavesdropping program Monday.
"It's a ridiculous argument, not only bad, it's ridiculous. Obviously, the attorney general who said it's all right to torture prisoners and so forth is going to support the person who put him in office. But he's a very partisan attorney general and there's no doubt that he would say that," Carter said. "I hope that eventually the case will go to the Supreme Court. I have no doubt that when it's over, the Supreme Court will rule that Bush has violated the law."
The former president said he would testify before the Judiciary Committee if asked.
"If my voice is important to point of the intent of the law that was passed when I was president, I know all about that because it was one of the most important decisions I had to make."
dsnut,If it were such a false premise and untrue...wouldnt you think rove and company would respond and say so? Why arent they challenging what he said?
Heres what former president Carter, had to say
Ex-President Carter: Eavesdropping Illegal
By KATHLEEN HENNESSEY, Associated Press Writer Tue Feb 7, 1:12 AM ET
HENDERSON, Nev. - Former President Jimmy Carter criticized the Bush administration's domestic eavesdropping program Monday and said he believes the president has broken the law.
"Under the Bush administration, there's been a disgraceful and illegal decision — we're not going to the let the judges or the Congress or anyone else know that we're spying on the American people," Carter told reporters. "And no one knows how many innocent Americans have had their privacy violated under this secret act."
The former president also rebuked Attorney General Alberto Gonzales for telling Congress that the spying program is authorized under Article 2 of the Constitution and does not violate the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act passed during Carter's administration. Gonzales made the assertions in testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, which began investigating the eavesdropping program Monday.
"It's a ridiculous argument, not only bad, it's ridiculous. Obviously, the attorney general who said it's all right to torture prisoners and so forth is going to support the person who put him in office. But he's a very partisan attorney general and there's no doubt that he would say that," Carter said. "I hope that eventually the case will go to the Supreme Court. I have no doubt that when it's over, the Supreme Court will rule that Bush has violated the law."
The former president said he would testify before the Judiciary Committee if asked.
"If my voice is important to point of the intent of the law that was passed when I was president, I know all about that because it was one of the most important decisions I had to make."
Rove and company don't have to respond because they know that average Americans like me will see right through what Feingold was trying to do....... without someone telling us what to think.
No President until just the last few years has ever come out of retirement to re-enter the political fray and attack a sitting president. Carter has a terrible legacy and isn't helping it by criticizing a sitting President.
BTW, when you read this piece by the AP, isn't it obvious to you that it is written in such a way to bolster Carter's credibility and damage Bush and Gonzales' credibility? This is exactly why the mainstream press is losing viewership and readership at an unbelievable rate. Did you ever wonder why Fox News' ratings are greater than all the other cable news channels combined, including CNN? Did you ever wonder why conservative talk shows are making tremendous profits due to high listenership, thus justified high advertising rates and liberal talk shows can barely keep the doors open and are subsidized by wealthy activists? Trust the American people! They are smart enough to figure out truth on their own.
Watch the polling on the NSA spy program over the next few weeks. As you know I don't have much confidence in polls but most Americans realize we are fighting a war, and we believe we can win it. Most are willing to make some sacrifices to aid in our success on the war on terror.
Those that say we can't win and that we should quit and that throw stumbling blocks in front of those we elected to defend us are serving no useful purpose currently. They are counterproductive and if you need proof of that line up what the naysayers have been saying with the things the terrorists have been saying. The terrorists say we should leave Iraq....... so do most of the democrats. The terrorists say they will keep coming and we can't win...... so do the democrats. The terrorists say if we oppose them they will hit us harder........ so do the democrats. The terrorists say we brought 911 on ourselves...... so do the democrats.
"Mr. President, I am an open book. Look at me all you want if it helps us to be successful and safe. Also let me know if there is anything I can do to help our Nation." That is my attitude. If Hillary becomes President in '08, she will continue an aggressive war on terror. Anyone who gets elected will because they need a safe America to have a good legacy. If she does become President, I will support her in the same way.
Have fun with this one guys.... and blackandred if you parce my words out to poke holes in them without making your own case for what you think, I won't respond to you. It is a debate technique that often works, but it does nothing to drive at truth. If you simply respond to my post, I will be happy to respond to yours.
Ron
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