I have friends and relatives who feel as you do. They blindly accept everything negative about Bush that they see in the news media. They also get a big dose of it from college professors. They say Bush is running the country into the ground because he isn't moving fast enough toward socialism. They want big brother to be watching us, but at the same time they scream about wire taps.

The inconsistancies of the left make me real unconfortable, as do those who seem to believe everything they read in the news media. I wish there was somewhere that provided a straight story on what's happening. In the meantime, I'll judge Bush by his enemies. Judging by who they are, he can't be all bad.

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: georged
Very interesting. So PNA is a rightwing organization chaired by William Kristol. At least Kristol doesn't make any bones about where he's coming from politically. You can evaluate what he says accordingly. Wouldn't it be nice if the New York Times, Newsweek and other lefty pubs would be as straight with us?

 

I think were on the same page, and even though we are not 100% in agreement on every issue (ever watch identicle twins argue, its funny actually lol) I think we can respect each others views.

After reading my earlier reply I started to think I could have condensed it all by just saying that the reason my ideas, statememts and posts may seem to wander between the left and the right is because they are my own, and not that of the democratic or republican parties.

[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: Deeplaker60
It's a little deeper than that:

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle1665.htm

I generally don't read or watch general US media for information. I prefer to watch the money and economics for an accurate picture of where the US is headed regardless of which political party or media slant is speaking.

 

Deeplaker,

Absolutely brilliant! Judge bush by his enemies! You just proved the "deep" in your name![img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]




Hondabuster & georged,

For you to say that the people supporting bush are doing it blindly implies that those of us who do support him are not as well informed as you are. This is typical of liberalism to assume the general public can't figure out what is happening and need people like you to tell them how to look at things. I am both, informed and honest yet I don't agree with your perspective. Until you stop thinking in terms of Americans being sheep that need to be led to truth, you will always underestimate them, which puts you at a disadvantage in winning them over.

I would highly recommend that if you guys are serious about educating people that you stop implying or outright stating that the general public is misinformed, uneducated and that they are "morons". Maybe there are a few that fit those descriptions but even if there are, you guys pointing that out will not encourage them to relate to you. (I'm a moron and I'm misinformed?! Gosh.....thanks for catching that. What can I do to fix this?) That isn't going to happen. The difference between people who are right and people who are great is whether or not they were willing to make the investment it takes to build credibility and win those they are concerned for over to their way of thinking. People who are simply ok with being right will not make that investment. They will be satisfied with the fact that in their own mind they are superior and if the general public doesn't take their counsel, that is the general public's problem.

As always,[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]


Ron

 

I think my reply here is gonna drive DSNUT nuts [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

"No other viable choices"

Well thats what were lead to believe isnt it. I can remember two things that I had heard discussed during every election that included a strong third party candidate, and that was that there was such a slim chance of his winning and why waste your vote, and that he couldnt possibllly get anything done due to not being a member of the two largest parties.

Sorry but that is total BS, and just a result of years of conditioning.


"Current administration running everything into the ground"

I cant remember an administration no matter how well liked or perceived that did things any different. Sure people like R Regan had their supporters (as well as Clinton and others) but just what positive changes had the general public seen besides the typical cylcles of the economy?


"they still have bilndly, loyal defenders, who dont even realize they are being used, and how they are ruining things"

This one sort of hit home due to a family member who was deeply involved with one of the popular parties to the point of being on several boards, and a party leader on a local level who recently found out what I had been preaching for years, and thats how he should be carefull of being part of a party that only his time, money and vote were invited to. The party openly accepted all he had to offer, but when the time came for the party to help in a time of need they turned their backs.

Again the actual political party does not matter as this scenerio could play out in either, but when your value as either a small supporter thru your vote, or the donation of your time and dollars etc does not hold any merit in comparison to those larger supporters it only contributes to the idea of where we all really fit in the two party system.

It also applies to this thread as many of the positions stated, and comments made show signs of being party motivated. I hope that there are more than a few of us who are actually speaking our minds and not our affiliations to a certain party.

I can see the potential problems from the intel gathering by the NSA, and the loss of civil liberties of the patriot act etc, but I also feel I can support our leaders (including GW) during a time of war and crisis. Does that mean I agree with everything that is happening (including the war itself), of course not. Does it mean I support the obvious attacks by the dems that are more intended to cause damage than produce a positive outcome (and obviously so by the way) deffinately not.

I may have said this before but the initial reason I posted this thread was due to the fact that since I enjoy a sport that is extrememly restricted, and has and does see a large amount of political spin (remember our legislators have to keep their donators happy too, both the greenies, and developers) that there would be interest from the masses here to learn about new potential ways the govt would be able to effect us all in a negative way. With our rights to access to govt land already infringed upon I thought it only made sense to debate potential losses of our rights.

Lastly another thing I just dont get 100% is that if those who are calling themselves democrats or republicans etc are referring that they believe in the general beliefs (yes both right or left etc) of the party, or if they are simply followers and believers of the party itself? Maybe I shoud pose it another way, can a sworn republican publically oppose the actions of the current administration, and or a sworn democrat support the same actions?

 

Georged please comment more on this or offer a link etc as I would be interested in checking it out.

OOOPS, guess I missed it in your earlier post, sorry [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: georged
Maybe I'm just too cynical, but I've seen the stock market drop when the economy was booming. I've seen the stock in companies that are making good profits fall, while highly speculative dot.coms soared. I suspect that what's printed in the general US media is driving a lot of this.

Did you ever notice how the big time economic analists almost always predict doom and gloom. Heck, that's what I'd do in their shoes. If you are wrong and the economy does well, everyone is so happy they forget what you said. But if you are right and the economy tanks, you become a god.

 

This is where things get interesting to me at least. I do completely agree with this idea, but I also do not agree with all that has been done by the GW administration. Am I creating my own internal stress? Maybe there is just so much unknown to the general public that we can not honestly decifer the things that are happening, and maybe its meant to be that way.

See I can understand the need to properly proctect the US and our interests from any attack (foreign or domestic) and support those efforts as long as they do not in any way infringe on our civil liberties. I also can see that the opposing party has nothing to offer besides their own attacks (on the current admin) and that many of their social and economic ideas are totally and completely in conflict with my own. I also know that both parties seem to favor larger ever growing govt in some way, and that also is against my true beliefs.

I guess DSNUT really got me to thinking with his ealier post, and all I can seem to come up with over and again is that neither party properly addresses the needs and desires of the majority of Americans, puts those needs above their party, holds our civil rights as more important than their own sucess, believes in total honest disclosure to the american public, and just simply doesnt put the total well being and quality of life of the average american on the top of their agenda.

Sure just by my comments its obvious that I seem to favor conservative thinking and ways, but I also (like so many others) can see where there is so much more to the motivations of the party we realte to being conservative that even though it may be our preferred party at election time we are not totally inline with their thinking and actions, and are very likely just chosing the "lessor of two evils".

It also seems to always come back to the money, and traking the flow of it (thanks george for reminding us again and again lol) as many of the supposed beliefs of either party can be tracked right along with the flow of the $$$. I think anyone can accept that we as offroad enthusiasts can agree and support the open land issue opinions of the republican party as they tend to favor our sport more than the democrats, but when you look at they way they also create such a industrial friendly environment to the point of obviously encouraging business that actually openly harms the very environment we desire access to it creates a bit of confusion to say the least.

Maybe the real issue at hand (sorry if I am repeating myself) isnt the stated views of either party, and rather is how big business, big money and supporters etc truely effect or steer the political opinions and decisions of both parties. I believe this not only to be true, but also where both parties lose the connection with the american citizen and their needs.

No matter how you silce it this always comes back to the money, and power!!!

 

----------------------------------------------------

It's a little deeper than that:

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle1665.htm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That website calls itself "Information Clearing House," but it looks to me like a mouthpiece for the looney left. They say PNA advocates "The establishment of a global American empire to bend the will of all nations."

"Global American Empire?" Like, we should get those tanks rolling and blitzkrieg into Canada.

It looks l ike the looney left vs. the wacky right. Both should be ignored.