Bravo!!

 

Political correctness has conditioned us to be afraid of labels. I would go as far as to say it is "trendy" to oppose labeling. I am not afraid to do so because it is important to not limit tools of distinction. I use the the terms conservative and liberal as tools of distinction between two very different core ideologies. I proudly label myself a conservative because it gives you fair and honest warning where I am coming from. I am not afraid to allow someone else the tactical advantage of being able to anticipate my moves because truth is more important than just getting to be right. If you convince me that my thinking is flawed, I will be the first to admit you were right.........on anything. Give me enough time with anyone here and they will at minimum respect me and will always know that there are good, honest people like me who are just plain different from them in how we look at the world.

I would love the opportunity to adjust in a positive way what you have learned about people. I to am amazed at how many politicians can live with themselves and their unwillingness to stand for what they believe is uncontionable. There are many, though, that are good people who stand for what they believe whether it is popular or not. I am like many who have posted in the last few days in that I don't vote party lines either. I find "conservative" to be a much better label than republican because sometimes republicans are not that conservative. The party will change with polls but a conservative and a liberal who are dedicated to their ideology will not waiver. When I label someone as a liberal, I am intending a compliment. I may disagree with them whole heartedly but I know that they believe what they say, so they should be proud of what they are. I respect liberals who are open about being liberal and proud to be liberal. What I don't respect are conservatives who act liberal to get votes and vice versa. That is not genuine and ultimately counter-productive. Anyone who tries to initially hide their agenda to earn a discussion with someone else is disingenuous and has some explaining to do. The first and most important ingredient found in a productive discussion that is not purely recreational but is intended to impact people is mutual respect. Nail eachother between the eyes with logic and reason but respect eachother in the meantime or the discussion will go badly. Entering a discussion under, either false or misleading pretences is not a foundation for respect, therefore it is not a good way to start a meaningful discussion.

I don't think labels are all bad if they are accompanied by respect as the foundation and I respect each and every one of you even if I am taking shots at your ideas. Some labels cannot be accompanied by respect by their very nature and those are never good. I see liberal and conservative as the best, most consistent terms available to describe where we are coming from because almost everyone understands the basics of each, thus a platform for each of us to jump off of to further define our position. Regarding putting Amarica first, the fact that I am a proud, self proclaimed conservative does not take away my ability to put my nation first. I fully believe georged and hondabuster and all the others are doing what they feel is right for America.

Remember, part of being a conservative means I see many things as truly black and white. I find no reason to complicate things that to me are simple. Because of that type of statement I have many liberal friends who refer to me as catagorical and closed minded. My liberal friends, who I respect, will take even the most straight forward case and want to smear the black and white into shades of gray. They thoroughly enjoy their intellectual discussions about the nuanced complexities of life.

Let me throw down my definition of a true intellectual again. A true intellectual can take the most complicated subject and boil it down so everyone can understand it. A false intellectual takes the simplest topic and complicates it to the point no one can understand it.

Summary, there has to be some way to define the two dominating ideologies so that we all know where the other person is coming from. This is why I respectfully called both georged and hondabuster on claiming they are republicans. I believe they are but it is important that we all put our position out on the level and since at this point in history, republicans are the more conservative and democrats are the more liberal of the two main parties, it unnecessarily muddy's the water as to what their agenda is. Their ideology aligns closely with what liberals are saying and mine aligns with what conservatives are saying. I know they believe their own point of view so I believe they should be just as proud of their status as liberals as I am of my status as a conservative. And the really cool thing is when we can be good friends after we have staked our claim so that everyone knows what we stand for........even if we agree on nothing. I have a conservative agenda. You are reading every word of it. The difference between me and republican with an agenda is, I am not trying to get anyone elected. I want either the republican or democrat that is going to lead the country with conservative values.

I hope this helps.........

Ron

 

I missed this one. I cannot believe anyone would make a statement like this. 440ex, not to bash georged because I know he is intellectually honest and stands by his statements but this is an example of a label that cannot be accompanied by respect so is therefore never okay. Referring specifically to the label "morons".

440ex, I did notice that you set aside "morons" as unacceptable in your response to this post but I wanted to point out an example of the difference between an okay label and a not okay label. IMHO

Ron

 

I cant argue with your thinking, and this just further supports my idea that without being able to remove all political alliances or party prefference etc from ones self you can not accurately or fairly look at, or discuss the real issues impartially or be able to find resolution to our problems due to ones being polluted by the many years of propaganda fed them from their political party of choice and its media supporters.

Personally I thought the entire issue surrounding the "bj" scandle was a total waste of time, and the american taxpayers money, and just like today may very well have been a smoke screen for any real criminal offenses etc.

Still the point remains that once you have made up your mind to follow or prefer either of two supposed political affiliations your ability to see or seek the truth has been greatly effected.

 

Good observation!!

I especially agree with the first paragraph!

I have often compared the news reporting of the war and the inteligence gathering with my personal experiences with the local media editing my own statements in various reports and issues I have been involved with.

Since I cant even begin to recount the amount of times I have been misquoted, and had my words printed in a way that either totally missed the point, or completely changed it, and can count the times the reporting was accurate and represented the meaning of my statements on two fingers I know first hand that even the smallest media outlet can "spin" things to meet their objectives.

Now I also know that not all reporters have any hand in these changes (though their refusal to discuss them is annoying) and there done on the higher editing level's that are more prone to be controlled by the corporate level of the media's ownship etc, but the fact remains that these things are common place in the reporting of the news to the us public, and it is something that I find shamefull and totally unacceptable.

Just as an example that all of us can relate to here is how at a recent township meeting that was being infiltrated by locals specifically directed by the sierra club in the area to oppose a new atv/dirt bike riding park that was propossed and many of us had attended to show support for the park (and keep things fair) where my statement was completely missused thru editing.

To show fairness and our being trustworthy and respectable as a group etc I had included in my statement that there was a concern to design the park in a way that would make it best for all concerned, both the riders using it, and the neighbors of it etc. and this was less than 2% of the statement. How it ended up after editing was truely funny as it showed the statement to be that the concern was for the envrionment and the neighbors etc.

It wasnt damaging, but it wasnt what I had said, or what the obvious meaning of the statment was, but apparantly someone at the paper was looking to make a change to show support for the environmentalist side of things and caused my words to be changed.

If that can happen at this level (there have been others on various levels) I can only imagine how much influence there is on a national or global level. Like it or not this is what we currently have to deal with, and like so many other problems will most likely be around until we the people make it change.

 

Maybe my living in what would likely become the first actual police state in the US (some may disagree as they believe it already is) I look at all of this with a bit more concern than those from other areas of what I call the "real America"

This may also be why I have to remind myself that the way its supposed to work is a "govt of the people, for the people" and not a govt against the people, or a govt to control the people, and mostly not a govt to cater to those with the largest amount of $$$ in supressing the people.

Then again being from an area where its common to have 20-40 officers covering a 1-2 mile area that is also backed up by a combination of county, state, and even some federal officers I am sure you can appreciate my concern. I am thanfull that due to having business relations, family and friends who are officers of various levels of govt etc that I can find some comfort in believing that somehow I should have a better chance than most if the sheet was to ever really hit the fan. Then I remember that its not healthy to completely live in denial [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

 

[quote]
Originally posted by: georged
I can fully understand the idea of those with little faith in the "general public" and considering the typical simple motivations, and past lack of involvment in causing changes etc it really does not seem to be something that is in anyway suprizing. I wont sway the topic again, but even with the education levels constanting growing etc I still meet as many "clueless" people today as ever before. Before anyone jumps on me for that last statement remember that inteligence and education, and lastly "ability" are all very different things.

Georged if you could get more into the values given and just provide additional info on the following it would be great. I just dont completely agree with it (though as usual am open to diff ideas) but do feel that the revenues, and jobs from small business end and labor etc are just more of a trouble to control, and not as easilly manipulated etc as large corps etc.

 

440ex,

I will simply ask the first honest question that came to my mind after reading this post, your post.

Do you honestly believe that only people who, the only stand they take is to stand against people from both parties, have a monopoly on accurate perspectives?

I know from the perspective you just described it is easy to tear down republicans and democrats but do you really believe that you can rebuild America by tearing down the two political parties that make up a little over 80% of the population?

A lot of people, and this is another one of those trendy, intellectual things, think that the way to get along is to claim the middle of the road but that mostly ends up compromising your values so that you don't stand too firm on something that will challenge someone else. This is the very thing you and others are complaining about reps and dems. I went back through this thread and thanks to your posts before I showed up I have a pretty good idea where you are coming from.

It is easy to take a third position on tough issues because no one requires or expects you to stand for something or to promote ideas. All they expect is for you to stand against anyone who does promote ideas. That is an easy test to pass and it requires no resolve or courage. Again, I appreciate how you have handled this thread but everything any of us has said is a symptom or indicator of our deepest core belief. I have found your agreement with select statements made by me to be in conflict with your support of ideas that have a completely incompatable underlying core belief. We each have a constitution within ourselves that is unchanging that holds our words and actions accountable as well as guides them. showing support to me in certain areas, then showing support to someone else with a another point when the two points couldn't possibly have the same constitution or core belief as a starting point for your opinion makes me concerned that your agreement or support for some of my ideas was simply superficial and intended to ensure that I feel good about me while posting on this thread. I sincerely hope that that is not the case.

I am not accusing you of anything. I am simply stating my concern and what crossed my mind regarding your belief that anyone who is attached to a political party is effected by that association. I assumed you meant for the worse, not the better. If I am mistaken on that assumption, I should take my own advice and practice being more positive!

I understand that you are in a difficult position because a discussion like this could get ugly very quickly and your concern for that is a stronger sign of a good leader than the concerns I state above would indicate. In short, (too late for that, lol) I do respect you and I want you to not let your desire for us to feel good about our contributions, to make you feel like you can't state what you want to. I promise i can handle it.


[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img][img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Ron

 

I hear ya Ron, and understand your point (even agree with it some too), but reason I singled out moron was that the underlying meaning or point seemed valid.

I meet a considerable amount of people from very diversified levels of education, intellect, financial worth, and social standings, and find that the exception is those who do not seem to fit his description in some way. I am not saying it is a bad thing either, but just that there are obviously many more people who just can not, or chose not to look beyond the simplicity of their lives and needs.

Even some (deffinately not all, by any means) of the most educated, and financially successful people I have known are not exempt from that statement.

Is it a crime to prefer a simple lifestyle and be able to keep ones mind clear of all the so many things we have become to think of as not being able to change? of course not!! I know some who are totally oblivious to most everything we are discussing here, but they are also some of the happiest, and least stressed out people as well.

Everything comes at a cost, and like it or not is also relative in some way, and this includes that statement.

If you look thru this thread (being its so long its up to you lol) you will see similar meanings if not the actual words more than a couple times, but this isnt what makes it ok. Its the fact that this is the authors opinion and if we agree (which I think all have to up to a certain level or limit, or atleast understand its fundamentals) as though its not true for all, it is a fair description of some.

***

As far as labels go I want to be clear that I am not 100% for or against them. What I have a problem with (which I believe Ron explained well) is the unclear part of the whole which party = liberal or cons etc and how there is more confusion created from it than making anything clear.

I also remember the label "moderate" which I had thought referred to adhearing to ideals that would be able to reflect both sides, and sometimes the better of both etc, and wonder what ever happened to this? or maybe going beyond two dimensional was just too confusing to work as well.

 

I thought with all the talk and reference to who is really running politics, and the media etc this would be a good thing to check out for everyone.

Richest People in America

There are links to various different things like those running the media etc so take a look, I know I am.