I agree prosecution will not stop the problem (I mean just look at how well the war on drugs has gone, and how many people have died while the problem or issue just rumbles on) Sure it will make an example, and might even get a couple people to think can I go to jail for this, but overall from experience I just dont see any real positive side to it.

Now upholding the law as you mention initially is an entirely different story, and we could start and likely fill a new thread just on this subject, but my point wasnt to snub our noses at the law, but rather to accept that not all of them are perfect, and there is no positive side to pushing them to the limit in cases like were discussing.

Plus there are too many opposing issues involved anyway. Consider how a parent is restricted and controlled in how they are allowed to raise their children, but at the same time within these confinments are being made more and more responsible for them as well. I have lost count of all the stories and times I have heard "give me what I want or I will report you for abuse" or some other thing like that due to our little darlings being so educated in our legal system (actually pretty funny, and something I had sort of twisted myself when younger lol), and I know some parents with very young children who already know this, and some are not even in school yet.

I know I am getting a little off topic, but I think what it really all comes down to is controll, and everyone from each of us to the govt that is supposed to represent us (that is how a republic is supposed to run right) really needs to understand there is only so much we can or even should do. There is a need for education (I honestly believe this is the key) but trying to force people to conform on everything, and control all their actions thru legislation just is not working, and you cant legislate stupid plus were already running out of space in our institutions from stupid people who are doing many other more serious things.

Sorry I dont have the answers (wish I did if anyone would listen anyhow lol) but continuing to infringe on our freedoms and washing down our culture thru truely countless "feel good" legislation just isnt helping anyone, just like what seems to be the overly popular answer here education is the answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

As if these guys dont get enough over time [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

At least thats what I tell all of them in my family LMFAO

Seriously I have seen the results of things like this first hand with my experience boating, and with jet skis.

I have taken a few courses in various boating skills given by the coast guard aux, and have nothing but praise for them and what is available to be learned. Thing is though that the people teaching and testing are deeply involved, and have many years experience plus a genuine concern for what happens out on the water.

I had done this years before there were any mandatory laws in place as I not only like to be somewhat good at what I do, but also believe its only "smart" to have a good understanding of things you are involved in.

Well years later the state here decided that the only way to control jet ski riders was to legislate mandatory training, and to force every rider to carry a sort of license that proves they took and past the state test. As a courtesy to other family members I attended the mandatory "training" and test even though exempt from previous certification. Well I have to admit this class was lucky as the person giving it was state trooper who actually had some training himself as he had served on the water, and actually was a boater himself who had an interest in the whole thing as well. Similar to the coastie aux guys I had learned from he had a certain amount of experience, and it was an obvious plus, but still by design the benefit of the test was limited.

The time frame was only a few hours, the questions were too simple (the test was a enhanced version of what is taught to elem students) there was not ample time to fully answer questions, and basically you just need more time.

Good or bad as that was (the whole story is way tooooo long for here) when the state decided to create a similar mandatory law for all boaters in the state the new process was even worse. I know that on the fist run the avail testers were overwhelmed, and the second time road it was many times more overwhelming.

I know people who are now certified who have absolutely no idea of what they are doing, and from what I can figure neither did the intructors or tester or whatever.

So now what is our result? We have a bunch of certified license holding jet ski ridrs and boaters who are just ever so slightly more knowledgable than they were before, and though any help is positive it seems the only ones who really benefited were those were lucky enough to get a instructor who was experienced him or her self, and the real winners were the few who actually were able to get into one of the 8 week courses given by the aux.

Will our future be similar? Will the problems that muddy4life and I have seen be repeated, or will we have enough influence to see that only experienced and properly trained instructors being teaching these courses, and will we actually have courses, or will we be cursed with the problem where time only allows basic testing on a elem school level??

We can still agree to not agree on everything, but please lets agree to put the emphasis on education, and proper training!!!

 

Boy, 10, Killed In ATV Accident
San Pedro Valley, AZ

A 10-year-old Benson boy was killed Thursday after wrecking the ATV he was driving. Carol Capas, spokeswoman for the Cochise County Sheriff's Department, said they were alerted at about 1:30 p.m. about a 2006 Polaris 500 ATV accident involving two young boys on Jennella Drive in south Benson.

Capas said while the incident is still under investigation, it appears that 10-year-old Christopher Bayze landed wrong after he attempted a jump on the quad runner with another young boy riding as a passenger on the adult size ATV built for one rider. While the other boy was thrown away from the ATV, Bayze got caught and was thrown in front of the quad.

The other rider was not injured. Bayze was pronounced dead at the scene around 1:48 p.m., Capas said. Medical technicians from Healthcare Innovations were on the scene, and after talking to medical staff at St. Joseph's Hospital in Tucson, pronounced the boy dead.

Bayze is the son of City Clerk Vicki Vivian. Family and friends described the Bayze as always happy, who had a passion for sports, especially football.

Services for Bayze were held on Tuesday.

 

400ex,
nice post my friend. To satisfy my one curosity, I actually went as a STUDENT to a few of these safety classes taught by some of Michigans's finest in Blue uniforms [LEO officers]. I went armed with questions that SHOULD be asked by concerned riders wanting to get the most they can from such a class.This 24 yr old overweight female Sheriff was instructing. She was SO bad at answering my questions, she would actually try and BS her way thru some questions or tell me to call her boss and ask him the same question. I politely told her that I did'nt pay my tuition for this class just to have to turn around and have to ask her BOSS the same questions again.I also contacted the Michigan Department of Natural Resources and demanded an explanation. As of today, we still have not re-trained these 500 Instructors that were licensed under the DNR and have these same cops ROBBING our Off Road Vehicle training funds to get paid to instruct one of these classes.

Im as about as upset as one can be. These cops dont even own or ride a dirtbike or ATV, most may have NEVER rode one either. WHY even make a law for mandidtory training IF the responsable parties dont care WHO they license to instruct?

I went thru the proper channels to become a PROPERLY LICENSED INSTRUCTOR many years ago.I have personally trained 1000s of youth and parents. I also went thru a mandidtory criminal background check, they finger printed me, pre-screened me over the phone for qualifications,drug checked me, and sent me to the Honda Tech Center for 4 days of eight hour instructor prep classes,all while under the direct supervisoin of a Cheif Instructor.

I take offense to ANYONE that is just handed a license to instruct any safety class without the proper credentials to do so.The DNR would not like someone handing me over a DNR Officers license without the proper credentials or training, and I dont care for what they've done to the Off Road Vehicle safety classes either.

Our KIDS and PARENTS are suffering in the end!

 

I would take offense as well, and I think the whole offroad community should also.

I guess this really fits into what I am trying to say about over legislating being a waste of time, and though I can understand how for some there can be some confusion with loving and serving your country, and the difference of the govt that we have allowed to be running it etc the real point is that once these things become "political-ized" etc they lose the original intent no matter how good those intents were.

We can only do the best we can etc, but keeping on track like we are here, and sharing our thoghts, and then keeping after our legislators to do the right thing, and do it the right way etc seems to be the best chance we have to avoiding all our local experiences in how wrong things can go from becoming a national problem.

From what I can see everyone posting here are good people with genuine interests in doing what is right and will help, and all we really need to do is to stay focused and while allowing the numbers to grow start refining our approach and get the message to the proper legislators etc. In time with a little luck and plenty of work it should end up working fine.

 

My point in posting the article about the 10 year-old boy recently killed when the adult size ATV he and his young freind were riding landed wrong after a jump, was to follow up on previous post demanding "laws already on the books be enforced!" Especially the ones titled "Child Endangerment" and "Negligent Homicide." Both of which should be charged if the investigation points to a "RESPONSIBLE" adult allowing this activity to take place. WE DO NOT NEED MORE LEGISLATION. Just enforce what's already there!

MUDDY4LIFE,
If you don't like the system in Michigan that handed out "instructor's credentials" to unqualified persons, become an activist and CHANGE the system! Don't waste you time writing to the DNR; they're just hired bureaucrats (defined as: "an official who works by fixed routine without exercising intelligent judgment"). They did not write the legislation that empowered the MI DNR to hand out licenses to 500 incompetent LEO instructors; the FOP lobbyist did! Write to, better yet, visit your elected officials and report what you have observed from a "qualified" (ATVSI) point of view. Don't get mad at, or try to fight the police, YOU CAN"T WIN THAT ONE. Get involved with the system at a higher level.

 

Allready ONE UP on you my friend. Not only am I VERY involved in changing what is wrong with the ATV safety program, I am also one of the main characters involved in the discussions to set up an Academy to train these 500 officers. We have had private discussions with the DNR for at least 3 years now,but they keep hiring more of their LEO buddies that are not qualified to instruct.This really shakes me up. What the DNR is doing is to try and make training a simplified program with little/no benefits for the operator or parents,at the sametime, give the dollars collected for this training fund, to their LEO buddies.

Our last discussions involving this Academy was in Nov of 2006. I think I need to ruffle some more feathers after Easter.

 

MUDDY4LIFE,

I've always taken the "start from the top and work down" approach to these problems. Let's see now, Who's the Governor of Michigan?"

 

Sorry but I must have missed this earlier [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

I actually agree with your real point there, and though I dont expect much to change in that area I also believe that the overwhelming cause of our problems seen with atv's is actually the very same reasons they have become so popular and outnumber dirt bike (and I believe all motorcycle) sales.

A two wheeled motorcycle used offroad requires a certain amount of skill to operate, and this is obvious to anyone who sees one operated etc, but even though there is a similar amount of skill needed to "properly" and safetly operate a ATV it just looks much less intimidating and so stable being on four wheels that like any ole idiot can just hop on and start riding.

In my heart I know this is as large a part of the problem as the lack of thinking and responsibility of those many here are refering to as "stupid", but just like I know these types of people will tend to continue to make costly mistakes I also know these types of machines that are so "idiot proof" anyone can ride one etc are going to continue to be made, popular, and be many times involved in the accidents we all cringe to hear about.

I am sure I must have already made the association with the very similar situation created within the jetski community when the stand up models were quickly overshadowed by their sit down model cousins. I had ridden the old style stand ups many years ago, and they were an absolute blast, but just like trying to be fast on a dirt bike they required a certain amount of skill to just operate properly, and if you didnt aquire those skills you spent much of your time getting back on the thing just like you would after sliding out your dirt bike etc.

Step forward so many years into the 90's and your not seeing too many stand up models, and the water is literally filled with sit down models almost everyware. I remember cursing the sob's on the sit downs trying to jump the wake off my boat, or just flying across the bow causing a near miss because they either didnt pay attention or were not knowledgable enough to know what was happening.

It was strange because I rode the things myself, and after a while even before the various states and agencies started targeting the whole sport I realized that as much as the sit downs were a vast improvement for ease of use etc they made the whole experience open to many people who were not able to operate or were too intimadated to try a stand up, and this brought a whole new group of "newbies" to the sport who had no fear or knowledge of what they were getting into.

I think its the very same problem with the rash of newer 4x4 util machines, and any other "idiot proof" looking atv. Like was stated in the original post I quoted "I say make the machine too scary for your average IDIOT operate ....." this just makes sense, and way to often I have heard people making statements like "I didnt think something like this could happen as it looks so stable" or "no one told me that they could flip over" or whatever other similar thing that showed that the buyer or operator had no idea of what they were getting into, or had any idea of the skills required to operate the thing safetly.



No matter what you believe about all the stupid remarks etc you have to give some thought, and also some merit to the idea of the relationship between these newer more simple to operate machines, the newcomers to the sport they attract, and their portion of responsibility for the not so welcomed results.

I know I catch heat when ever I directly point a finger towards the auto tranny sport utes, and I can handle that, but I only wish enough would redirect that heat towards the real issues of this, and maybe help someone keep themselves from getting into more than they bargained for.

 

I enjoy the luxury of auto trans-Engine braking-4x4-winches-agressive tires-high ground clearance ect ect ect---------just the same way that I enjoy my cars and pickup trucks fully loaded with features.

WHY do I have to not have the features that I like because some idiot dont excercise common sense when getting on an ATV? Besides, there are many features on an ATV that actually make them safer to ride vs not having them.

Do we also take air bags out of our vehicles to protect idiots from themselves? I dont think so.

EDUCATION is the KEY WORD HERE. I have been a proponent of ORV safety training for EVERY PERSON who owns any type of ORV under the age of 18. And if you are over 18, you MUST have to go to a training course at least once.

Next thing we must do is to get rid of these idiot instructors teaching these safety courses and get experienced and properly trained instructors to do this job. There is no sense in making mandidtory ORV training IF we are going to use BOZO's as instructors.